[CSDb] - User Forums

Welcome to our latest new user Rodrigo Yeowtch ! (Registered 2024-11-24)

You are not logged in - nap

CSDb User Forums

Forums > CSDb Discussions > Wiring?

2003-06-24 14:44

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Wiring?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, the english I read here is a bit messy for me to understand. Do I smell someone accusing me that I wire, or the opposite?
Quote from the latest Beergarden.

"Personally I'm a beleiver that 'REAL C64' gfx artist should pixel out the whole picture that they draw. Not wire it from Amiga or PC onto C64 then touch it up in an art package and then lay claim to fame on it.To me this is MIGHTY LAME and for these of you reading who don't know what I'm getting at, then just search your spreads for some recent gfx by JAILBIRD. Study his gfx carefully, they look good don't they..? So they should as wiring doesn't require anyway near the work or effort as does pixelling every dot on the C64."

Hope I just missunderstood these lines, but anyhow, proofs about my cheating would be higly appreciated, all the more as I always (unlike other "artists") prove my C64 handpixelling by numerous work stages.
I don't get why was I picked out nevertheless, wether if the author of the article thinks I cheat or not.

Then, you spend countless hours on minor innovations in c64 pixelling, you dedicate original graphics to the audience, whilst NOt COPYing other graphics artists, you fight on every kind of forums for high class fair-play on pixelling-competitions, or for the workstage-rules, and then you get a nice slap on your face. Well thank you.

My motivation is on the floor and my sadness is really deep. :(((

... 42 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2003-06-26 12:08

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

personally I believe it's the same challenge on the PC or C64. The flickering in IFLI is irrelevant as you're still ultimately going to convert the pic back to c64 format where the flickering will become an issue (if anything it's harder pixelling on a PC because you've got to keep in mind the potential flicker and know how to keep it to a minimum without actually seeing it!).

In my opinion it's all about being able to visualise how to create an effect on the screen in the c64's resolution with the c64's palette. Your ideas don't differ whether you're using a PC or a C64, it's just that PC tools usually make getting there a lot faster!

I wouldn't use a PC prog for pixelling in compos because I know some people consider it cheating, however, I wouldn't feel cheated if I were beaten by a pic pixelled on the PC because I don't believe it makes the graphician any better (so long as they're pixelling by hand from a blank canvas and not just converting something and 'touching up' the results).

2003-06-26 14:44

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Once I made a fullscreen IFLI picture (from my mind) on PC in just 4 hours, if I compare that to spending two, three days of pixelling on Commodore 64 if I'm lucky enough to have so much free time - I indeed see the difference. Pixelling on the PC/Amiga (NOT Vodka's Elitepaint, but GFX2, Deluxe Paint, ProMotion, Pixel32, Brilliance, even Photoshop or Paint Shop) is much easier, why? Look at the advantages:

- much more options you can utilise (both hi-res/lowres - FLI/Multi-colour), not just the point-line-fill trio like in most of the c64 pixelling programs, but for example: deformed-lines, transparent effects, automatic antialiasing, tiling, brush-tiling, much smarter streching/distorting routines, alternative brush handling... etc...etc...
- adjustable mouse control (amica paint's mouse driving compared with PC's, is like I'd compare a Skoda to a Ferrari - they're both cars), just try to draw a smooth curve in one move in Amica Paint and then go try in on PC
- different zoom modes: 2x, 3x, 4x... up to 20x, depending on which program you use - compare that to C64's 8x or eventually, 4x zooms. And all that fucking fast!
- copy/paste of higher kind, try copy/paste a semi-finished something on c64 for 13 pixels to the left and see what you'll get - go for another 2 hours of improving the color-bugs
- less than a second save routine, compare that to Gunpaint's 133 block's save, you can save a stage on PCs every half a minute, every 10 seconds if you want, and it still won't disturb the process of pixelling, nevertheless you don't have to take care about fucked up disks and the space on the hard-disk
- five zillions of SMART undo's, I believe that the most C64 has is a one-step undo in Amica Paint, and it destroys everything you've painted while you were in the zoom-mode - you can ether undo back
- colour change with adjustable keyboard-short cuts, and color-change in general
- lotsa lotsa adjustable shortcuts
- adjustable resolutions, some resolutions are much more useable for graphicians than C64's strict resolution
- pre-set colour-fades
- adjustable dithering, brush dithering - fill a dithered area on PC in five seconds, while on C64 you'd pixel for five hours (dithering in C64/IFLI is the fucking hardest thing to do, on PC it's a child's play)
- more than two buffers
- color-picking (pipette tool), a thing that I've never seen on the c64
- one-click picture recolorizing (even deformed areas - no way on c64)

All these advantages stand for basic hires/lowres, ifli/nonifli. Now tell me there's no major difference between pixelling on PC or C64. Basically, no big deal in pixelling on monster-platforms.
The only disadvantage of PC/Amiga pixelling is obvious: you don't know how will the picture exactly look on the c64. But that's all, and even if some parts look shitty on the real thing, you can improve them in 15 minutes, and cool, in 5 hours, you pixelled a kickass c64 picture - the only catch is that you hardly even touched the c64, for making the pictuer as good as possible, you have used most of the advantages (if not the all) of a PC, such handles that a Commodore64 will never have.
Heres the phunny part: after that, you tell people to check your picture on the real thing as otherwise it will look shitty. ;)
Commodore 64 pixelling is PIXELLING ON THE COMMODORE 64, as otherwise they would call it "PC pixelling of Commodore 64 pictures", but since there is no such category on party compos, I don't see the reason of pixelling C64 graphics on PC for competitions, especially if I have a C64 powered up on the desk beside me.

2003-06-26 17:05

blackdroid
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84

So with a good editor on c64 you would cheat against those who used a lesser editor on c64/amiga/pc ?!? :)
logic doesnt hold. personally I think Ed's c64 gfx program is way better than elitepaint on pc ( one example ).
Brilliance is my favourtie all-time pixel program. unfortunately Im too lazy to even fix some space for putting up my amiga ( no UAE wont do for me ).
And just as Deev I would not feel cheated because someone pixeled his pic in Aura/Dpain/Brilliance and I did it in Amica paint + mouse ( which is kinda fast. same amount of work for sketching as on any other prog, eventhough amica paint has an almost painfully slow update ).

2003-06-26 18:23

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Not a single c64 graphics-program (even the fucking best) will reach near that brilliant level of Brilliance and the advantages of a higher platform's OS. Ergo a graphician who's using a c64 graphics program will never have the same advantages that a pixeller has who is using Amiga/Brilliance or PC/GFX2. Pixel-competing is based on fair-play and that you all work on the same platform and with all its disadvantages, with its native tools. Using a PC for creating a picture is easy (at least much easier than using a C64 - even with it's best tools), and if you enter it to a competition where the other graphicians sweated blood while creating their works, is not fair. If you don't care about fair play, well that's another story, I can't help about that.
Deekay compared this with entering to a cycle entering the 100m dash, but here's an proper example you probably all know about: Ben Johnson, the Canadian sprinter who was disqualified in the 1988 Seoul Olympics for having stanozolol in his organism. Imagine how the other runners felt like, as they didn't wanted (fair play, honesty), or (worst) maybe they wanted, but didn't had the opportunity to use drugs.
IMO C64 pixel-scene works something like the same-way. While you don't enter a competition, noone will care if you "used dopes" or not, perhaps your mamma.
To use Vodka's Elitepaint on PC, well yes, that really doesn't differs a lot from pixelling on the commie, in fact it's even worse than some proggies on the c64. But it's not the platfrom that counts but the same chances and possibilities.
Hello, if you're a c64 pixeller, means you can easily get for free and access to the same programs, tools, format-converters or whatever the other graphicians are using (anyone can mail me and I'll send the programs I use asap), while if you want to catch up with those who are using a PC/Amiga, you'll have to buy a new computer, eventually even pay a fortune for legalizing your version of Photoshop. Look, noone is forcing you to use a lamer pixelling proggie on the commie, but it's much harder to get a PC for enjoying the ADVANTAGES of a graphics-proggy that a C64 program will not have in this world, ever (I can go bore you again with advantages/disadvantages stuff, but nah...).

2003-06-26 18:30

blackdroid
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84

I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic.
I dont think its any difference. its just tools to help me portray a thought. same as acrylic/oil is in real life ( and boy was there a discussion about how big a cheater one was if using oil based colours when it first came ).
Now if you excuse me I have to get back to Amica paint and lay down some pixels for LCP.

ciao.

2003-06-26 19:05

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Well true, many different opinions on this topic...

By the way anyone interested volunteering to pretend to be Jailbird at LCP and contribute with a picture? :)

2003-06-26 19:06

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

I mean, since the contributor must be present at the party...

2003-06-26 19:53

blackdroid
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84

Does it include wearing a wig and a cute dress ? ;)

2003-06-26 20:05

T.M.R
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749

Lets not go there Blackdroid, at least not until i can afford the air fare... =-)

2003-06-26 20:17

blackdroid
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84

Ive heard its real cheap with Ryanair. all the more money for the wig :)