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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Emulator checks are evil
Seriously. I'm stuck in NTSC-land, so all this cool PAL stuff you Euros code is inaccessible to me on real hardware. When you add emulator checks/blocks, you keep "casual" fans who enjoy seeing C64 demos, but don't care to import a PAL '64 and monitor and associated high-end transformers to turn 110V/60Hz into 220V/50Hz from ever seeing cool stuff. So PLEASE ignore the advice in the emulator bugs document and keep on making no-check demos.
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
I will have to resort to watch your demo on a youtube cap then or something :) anyways whats good in shrinking your audience, even putting efforts into it ? |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote:You see how easy it is to tell what is what.
not that easy as you already know. the 4 pixel shift on $d016 writes introduced in Hoxs64 v1.0.5.19 seems to behave in a slightly different manner on the 8565 compared to the 6569. Ive seen software that displays a 4 pixel glitch on the breadbin while no glitch atall is shown on the C64C. Hoxs64 displays no glitch in v1.0.5.19. you've probably exploited this difference and your real VIC detector became a 6569 detector in effect.
one thing needs a further investigation though- heres how the glitch would look on my C64C:
Hoxs64:
this will need to be corrected if David decides to go further down the 8565 route.
you wrote in the comments that the screenshot from VICE looks wrong. how does it differ from the breadbin ? i have no breadbin to check my self.
Quote:Anyway, old CMOS VIC should be the standard ;) Since HOXS doesnt emulate new VIC, as there are no grey dots.
not really,the VIC-II in Hoxs64 is quite like the 8565 but without the grey dots. other tiny differences between the old and the new VIC exist,your detector fails on one of them. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
ec64:
How is it supposed to look after all? |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 899 |
Quote: Quote:You see how easy it is to tell what is what.
not that easy as you already know. the 4 pixel shift on $d016 writes introduced in Hoxs64 v1.0.5.19 seems to behave in a slightly different manner on the 8565 compared to the 6569. Ive seen software that displays a 4 pixel glitch on the breadbin while no glitch atall is shown on the C64C. Hoxs64 displays no glitch in v1.0.5.19. you've probably exploited this difference and your real VIC detector became a 6569 detector in effect.
one thing needs a further investigation though- heres how the glitch would look on my C64C:
Hoxs64:
this will need to be corrected if David decides to go further down the 8565 route.
you wrote in the comments that the screenshot from VICE looks wrong. how does it differ from the breadbin ? i have no breadbin to check my self.
Quote:Anyway, old CMOS VIC should be the standard ;) Since HOXS doesnt emulate new VIC, as there are no grey dots.
not really,the VIC-II in Hoxs64 is quite like the 8565 but without the grey dots. other tiny differences between the old and the new VIC exist,your detector fails on one of them.
There's the white one-pixel sprite at the right top. In your vice screenshot, there's 3 yellow pixels around it and those shouldnt be there..
Anyway, the major difference is also in the 2nd set of orange 'bars'. Mine looks like your shot from the real c64.
I didnt know there was a difference between the NMOS and CMOS VICS regarding these things :P Is there any document about it? |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 899 |
Quote: ec64:
How is it supposed to look after all?
OMG! that looks even more wrong :D
I see green in your screenshot, and that definately should not be there. Also the bottom 'mess' looks 1 cycle shifted to the right. |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote:There's the white one-pixel sprite at the right top. In your vice screenshot, there's 3 yellow pixels around it and those shouldnt be there..
hmmm im puzzled now. these 3 yellow pixels are present in Hoxs64 upto v1.0.5.18 where a real C64 is detected. in v1.0.5.19 these pixels have disappeared (cant see any other difference) and it is now detected as Hoxs. what does your routine check for if not these yellow pixels ? i thought the logic was: if the 3 yellow pixels are present then report it as a real C64.
EDIT:
Quote:I didnt know there was a difference between the NMOS and CMOS VICS regarding these things :P Is there any document about it? no,its undocumented afaik. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 899 |
Quote: Quote:There's the white one-pixel sprite at the right top. In your vice screenshot, there's 3 yellow pixels around it and those shouldnt be there..
hmmm im puzzled now. these 3 yellow pixels are present in Hoxs64 upto v1.0.5.18 where a real C64 is detected. in v1.0.5.19 these pixels have disappeared (cant see any other difference) and it is now detected as Hoxs. what does your routine check for if not these yellow pixels ? i thought the logic was: if the 3 yellow pixels are present then report it as a real C64.
EDIT:
Quote:I didnt know there was a difference between the NMOS and CMOS VICS regarding these things :P Is there any document about it? no,its undocumented afaik.
Let me think.
Yellow pixels are %01, so they count as background. The should not give a detection. As you can see in the hoxs screenshot you posted, the pixel below my sprite pixel is now orange-colored. -> orange is a %1 pixel, so does give a hit (hoxs detected). Vice has a yellow pixel there -> no hit == vice detected (or real machine).
On the left there's an area which looks the same, i have a red sprite pixel there. In your Hoxs screenshot, there's a yellow pixel underneath -> no hit. So the combination of left = no hit and right = hit tells me it is Hoxs.
My old vic seems to have no hit on the right OR left side.. Basically there's %0 beneath my white sprite pixel.
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
WVL: U naughty boy, have you turned my PD-display code into an emufuxx0r? ;D |
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DeeKay
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 363 |
Quote:You can use it to tell the user to buy a real C64 (Tense Years by Onslaught).
*cough*DeusExMachina?*cough* <:-)))
Anyway, having done a little Sideborder coding with my quite limited coding skills recently I was astonished how quickly I made something that VICE did not emulate properly (there was an extra black line at the right border where the upper border goes into the screen on c64 and not in VICE). Some days later, Widdy showed me a simple stable raster he made on the real c64 - which was not quite so stable in VICE! This is all quite simple and generic code, the original SB-code I worked with was even from 1988!
I thought It would take a lot more skills to actually make something that does not show correctly in VICE... Still some way to go with emus it seems!
I somehow have a feeling there's still alot more ways where emus go wrong, only that they're never used in any program, because they just show black or garbage on c64! So you never see how these "effects" fuck up on an emu...
You know, simple stuff like switching on multicolor in ECM, only on a much higher level! ;-)
On a slightly more optimistic note: Oliver Achten (MMC64/Replay) said after he made that Amiga-on-a-chip, that the c64 already probably is the most accurately emulated and well-known computer on the planet, and that Amiga coders have never even come close to that level of sophistication, because they never coded as much pedal to the metal as c64 guys did, with their C compilers, blitters, bitplanes and all that fancy stuff they got by default! ;-) He said with the timing knowledge he got through making that FPGA Amiga it would now be a walk in the park for him to fuck UAE & Co thrice over before sunrise with some emufuxxor! 8)
So... when will emus finally be able to do drivesounds and PWM-dimming of the drive-LED, like 1541u does? 8) |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quoting DeeKay*cough*DeusExMachina?*cough*
i was trying to give more recent examples than that:)
Quoting DeeKayI thought It would take a lot more skills to actually make something that does not show correctly in VICE... Still some way to go with emus it seems!
VICE is not the role model for accurate emulation,its known to sacrifice accuracy for speed optimization (line based sprites etc). only Hoxs64 emulates everything on a cycle basis.
Quoting DeeKaySo... when will emus finally be able to do drivesounds and PWM-dimming of the drive-LED, like 1541u does? 8)
the drive sounds are implemented in the german emulator Emu64. also Micro64 (not released) emulates them but they dont sound atall like my real 1541II would do. does 1541u emulate the click of opening/closing the latch when a disk image is attached/detached ?:)
Quoting WVLAnyway, the major difference is also in the 2nd set of orange 'bars'. Mine looks like your shot from the real c64.
Hoxs64 is fixed in the latest beta to display it correctly (as per an 8565 VIC):
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