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2004-08-05 07:54

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

LCP 2004 demos

What do you think ?

I'm sad, as there were no real coder's demos.

Afrika - we 've seen all these effects 10 years before

Triad,Flt - The design / theme of the demos were not good
enough to excuse for no spectacular codings.

Effluvium - the code was not good enough to excuse no gfx/design/whatever.

are there really no coders out there, that can come up with new stuff ?

... 131 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2004-08-05 08:42

macx

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 254

not being a coder, perhaps my perspective is different, but i'd really only agree partly and rather see it as proof of the scene evolving.

we're not teenagers anymore, trying to compensate for lack of self-esteem due to all the time breaking new records and being "the best". instead we're mature sceners, interesting in a nice coherent demo. something communicating a flow to us, and maybe telling us something or making us think.

we should not forget that demos are art. who'd be interested in thomas lundbyes paintings if he'd used more colours than picasso? we're not interested in art because of that, we love it because it gives us something. just like some of the demos at lcp did.

my partial agreement is ofcourse that you're not completely wrong. new effects should be tried out. there are so many things to be done, so many effects that could be released. they do not need to be hard coded, as long as they look nice. in fact i believe one of the reasons coders do not try new effects is that they are so simple. and THAT is THE major problem.

2004-08-05 09:03

Sat
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 12

Well I for one only watch C64 demoes to see effects that makes me go 'how the hell did he do that with this small machine'.
It's also the reason why I wont touch the PC 'scene' as its just a matter of who got the best artists, and to me 99.5% of those demoes are boring. Gone are the days where the coder really mattered (except for a couple of 64k introes).

I prefer tech demoes that require a understanding of the machine and where the uninformed wont know why its cool ;)

The reason for this is I like a demo to challenge me and give me a reason to figure out how that could be done and maybe even do it better.

IMHO if you want Art please go create it with all the other PC ....s

And macx, your explanation really was closet psychology and about as far from the truth as it could be.

Its simple as a coder I like to see incredible code the rest is just eye candy which give it the last 5%, but thats just because I enjoy code more than the story.

2004-08-05 09:17

macx

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 254

sat: instead of complaining and calling my arguing names i'd prefer you to comment what i really wrote.

i agree with you when it comes to pc demos, cause pc demos are not hard coded with all that cpu-power, atleast many of the coders behind them have not made the effort. but the c64 got its limits, making something smooth is not the easiest thing (i believe?). and then i'd rather see a demo giving me something than another record next to yet another nude phantasy-chick, not really being nice to watch.

but ofcourse new effects should be made, but they do not necessarily need to be hard coded. and also, old threads should be picked up. look at some effects and styles of some older demos, what happened to those? there are loads of inspiration to evolve from pre 4x4.

2004-08-05 09:32

Sat
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 12

I told you why I think your arguments are wrong.

My reason to like 'record demoes' and hard effects has nothing to do with your teenage/mature reasoning. I also dont care for art its not what C64 demoes are about for me (tbh I think this demo-art thing was something that was invented for PC).

Its as simple as I like to see amazing code, the rest is just extras and doesnt mean much to me. Dont take me wrong I have all the respect in the world for those really good artists that can do nice gfx for the c64, but I prefer to see good code.

I would also like to see the 4x4 mode die, its ugly as .... except on a big screen, and it was only invented to impress 'pc' users.

Lets have some good old effects running at 50 fps (or at least 25 fps) and in 'normal' resolutions.

2004-08-05 09:57

JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014

Agree without sat, however good graphics and nice flow is also necessary and is worth more that 5% IMO. :D I had this discussion with Oxidy last night and he told me I sounded like Oswald... But for you guys like sat and Oswald, I promise I'll give you coders pr0n some day soon.

/JackAsser - who's currently in the process of mastering the VIC-chip...

2004-08-05 10:14

G-Fellow
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 103

Hi all!

I dont need new effects in a demo! I need a good looking demo with cool sountrack nice grafix and maybe a story. So i liked the new demos! Better a good demo design with old efects than a demo with new effects that looks ugly!

Cheers,
G-Fellow

2004-08-05 10:34

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

"see it as proof of the scene evolving."

If a demo leaves me with the impression, that the creators have invested only 20-30% of what they are able to do into a demo, thats no evolving.

I dont need new or fancy gfx modes to be ammazed, Sander was the man who prooved to me that koala is enough, the picture counts.

I can be ammazed by a simple effect, but it has to offer visually more, or something completely new.

As of the pc demos today: they reached the level where everything can be done, so there was no other way than going artsy.

About 4x4, 4x4 can be nice if well done IMHO. Our demo in the works will have most of the effects in 4x4. Im curious to see what the reaction will be :). 50fps fullscreen effects are almost impossible hard to do.. especially new ones, this leads again to recycling imho.

G-Fellow: how on earth are you not bored to death of old effects, stuff seen for the 25th time ? A demo always should have a "wow" factor, be it for code, or gfx, or design, or music, or all. Something that I see for the 25th time will kill the wow factor for me.

what I really miss is, that I dont see the effort in demos as a few years back.

Going the art way has a similar reason as on PC. We instead of being capable to do everything technically are too close to the limits, and this is a new way instead of making impossible hard code. Lets call lame coding art. And lets view hard code from the artsy point, so we can claim we are better than coders with better skills than us.

2004-08-05 10:54

Dane
Account closed

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421

Watching Borderline really gave me a kick.

2004-08-05 11:03

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053

IMO, Visually interesting doesn't always need to be technically hard to achieve. Remember panoramic demos. Some of the effects vere subtle, some bigger, but always they were realisation of an new idea. "Chasing words" in scroller in final part of one of their demos, in combination with music was quite scarry I must admit.

For me, demo doesn't necesarily have to be technically innovative. But I would of course like to see new visual/animation ideas, preferably in fullscreen and there is still a lot of space for new things. Whether it is math coded, consisting of pre-calculated parts, or pre-drawn animation phases, I really don't care, unless it's rotating phong dithered duck... ;-) For somebody, duck floating on the animated-charset-sine-water line... extended to borders isn't anything extra, but for me it's something which gets attention alerted.

Good script (story telling, or impressionistic ;-) and good music timing sometimes makes 50% of the succes.

2004-08-05 11:17

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

It's all relative as usual. I liked these demos, except the Postcards one where I (a) laughed hard at the 'let's keep Stockholm clean' bit and (b) got so very, umm... uninterested after that. I guess you have to be from the area to appreciate the royalty jokes - relative, right.

But I'd say the general trend is very good. Demos depend on several ingredients: code, flow, concept, graphics, music. If a demo has these ingredients in spades, it will be a delicious meal for all. However, that doesn't mean that a demo lacking slightly in a certain flavour is bad.

It all boils down to who you are, and which of the ingredients *you* like having in your demo dinner. I can live without the coding world records - as long as the effects do what they're supposed to do and the rest is there, I'm happy and nurtured. The LCP demos do just that.

However, that doesn't mean that you have to enforce your diet onto everyone. Oswald, just because you aren't being served enough code, doesn't imply that the demos themselves are weak in the absolute sense.

Of course it also helps that I'm a layman when it comes to effects and hardcoding. My intuition currently says this: sideborder = evil, math effects = unrolled loops and lots of simplifying tricks, hard effects in ifli mode = hmm, new gfx modes = murrr. This, along with the fact that I'm more into the drawing/composing/design business, explains why my emphasis lies more on the other factors.

But I can understand where you're coming from, Oswald. I'm sure new demos with hardcode will come. There are enough competent chefs around - you won't have to be hungry for long =).

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