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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Defining 'World Firsts'
It is obvious what a world first is when it comes to a single effect.
Combining 2 or more effects, does that count as a world first ?
I'd anwser yes. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
ILM technically doesnt really offer anything new over FLI though, and similar stuff was done long before (without even mentioning it). so who cares =) its somewhat similar to Mongobong ... ifli plus samples was (to my knowledge) not done before. however ordinary fli was, back in the 90s already. so who gives a damn :) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: Interesting thread!
Having released the Independent Line Manipulator long ago (at MS97) which delivers a gfx routine including the special feature of MRFLI it makes me wonder if a pure routine presented only in a tool suffices to compete for something like "world first gfx mode".
I do not mean to offend Algorithm and his achivement with MRFLI in any way (I really love the MRFLI-releases I've seen up to now!), I'm just curious about what counts as a "real release for world firsts" and what not.
I guess it heavily depends on the content; our tool did not have any gfx so no one could really judge the gfx routine. Completely our fault :(
What do you think?
'charset or bitmap'
How would you best describe the graphics during Krestage that show: 2 vertcial lower border scrollers.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
its called "sprites" |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: you can keep your textbook definition for yourself when it comes to defining c64 demoscene related terms really :o)
and coming back to the original topic, it is actually important to define things in terms of c64 world - ie the definition must say how things are achived, not how the outcome looks, thats secondary and not very useful to define anything. eg the definition of "fld" must contain a technical description of how it works - because scrolling down a screen can be achived by other means too. and as for graphics, its either charset or bitmap, because the mode is what counts and not what you display with it.
'charset or bitmap'
How would you best describe the graphics during Krestage that show: 2 vertcial lower border scrollers.
EDIT: I quoted the wrong person in my previous post. An edit option would be hlepful at times like these. |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Quote: ILM technically doesnt really offer anything new over FLI though, and similar stuff was done long before (without even mentioning it). so who cares =) its somewhat similar to Mongobong ... ifli plus samples was (to my knowledge) not done before. however ordinary fli was, back in the 90s already. so who gives a damn :)
Hmm...
Compared to IFLI ILM does offer smth new: amongst other things there's a write access to $d016 on every rasline. Ofcourse it is still based on FLI but with this point of view I'd say _every_ new gfx mode that was "invented" after FLI is nothing new.
It just got me thinking why MRFLI was on Jazzcat's list (category "World fist - Graphic") while ILM was not. The gfx routine for MRFLI has even less features than ILM (no Background colour change, no $d800-interlace, no y-offset). It's just that nobody really "sees" these ILM features.
Concerning Mongobong: for me this one should also count as a "world first" because samples and FLI was not done before and it was a certain technical challenge to get it done. This Mongobong-example seems to fit quite well to WEC's initial question: does a combination of fx count as "world first" if not done before?
My question goes into a slightly different direction: where is the line between "pure code" and "visibility" for competing as "world first" (or even stricter: for being a proper release)? |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
@Copyfault samples and FLI was not done before
I think you put into words what I was thinking. More than a single effect, and not a grey area. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:Compared to IFLI ILM does offer smth new: amongst other things there's a write access to $d016 on every rasline. Ofcourse it is still based on FLI but with this point of view I'd say _every_ new gfx mode that was "invented" after FLI is nothing new.
- (i)fli routines that write to dd00 and d016 every line existed long before ilm
- and yes i agree, most of these "graphic modes" are nothing new afterall. to me after fli the only noteable one is shfli, because of how the sprite layer is done.
Quote:Concerning Mongobong: for me this one should also count as a "world first" because samples and FLI was not done before and it was a certain technical challenge to get it done.
read again :) mongobong contains _i_fli with samples. but ordinary fli with samples was done many years before that. and i dont consider adding lda $dd00 eor #2 sta $dd00 a technical challenge =) |
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Clarence
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 120 |
My opinion...
Invented fx are distinctive/original, and could be called firsts on c64 (I would rather leave the word 'world' out of it).
Improved fx in any sense (like combination of two interfering effect, improving previous technique, quantity records without losing framerate, etc.) are simply new.
In either case you have to have the lexical AND decent coding knowledge to be sure what you are stating. :)
"ordinary fli with samples was done many years before that"
Yep, example:
Justincase |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
FLI with Digi seems to have been done before this with the below release from censor
1 Year in Wonderland
Regarding MRFLI. Its similar to other FLI based gfx modes in that it generates a badline per line. A first release would really be when the gfx is first demonstrated. utilising the features.
For example with the invention of FLI (by Solomon / Beyond force?_ this was merely demonstrated as some amiga copper effects but realised and demonstrated into a gfx mode in Blackmails Dutch Breeze.
What if i was to have a routine with badlines per rasterline or/and plough gfx registers with values and create an editor which allows pixels to be plotted and parameters to be changed, would this be classed as a new gfx mode without anything to actually demonstrate it?
In regards to progress in C64 gfx modes, it has reached the stage where the potential (hardware wise) has been reached. The next stage to improve the quality would be the dither or/and mix color techniques used.
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
I agree with Algorithm on that one, it has to be demonstrated in my view.
Which brings me to my current research. Interlace Painter V1.0 appears to be the earliest sign of Interlace on the C64 (1987), but I did not see any use of that editor until a pic was released together with a newer revision of the editor on the Magic Disk (06/1990). |
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