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Forums > CSDb Feedback > Implement http://ftp.pokefinder.org/ into CSDb

2005-10-25 00:56

Nafcom

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588

Implement http://ftp.pokefinder.org/ into CSDb

Implement http://ftp.pokefinder.org/ into CSDb for alternative download link search!
Opinions?

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2005-11-02 16:50

tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790

@seven: Maybe there should be a way to mirror csdb? The biggest point of csdb is that there is meta-information about who did what. This will be mostly lost with ftp-only archives. It's ofcourse the meta-info that makes it more work to upload here, but I think it is worth it.

As for the cracks I agree to some extent. The downloads can always be quickly disabled though, they are all flagged as "C64 crack" in the database.

I don't agree with the different releases of cracks being equivalent. As for history, the text in intro scrollers, ratings, etc... is very interresting. If the cracks weren't allowed in here, this could possibly be solved by ripping the intros, or just the whole scroll-text. But that's even more work.

I agree that it would be good to have the stuff on ftp aswell, but couldn't that be taken care of by a partial dump of files from csdb?

Just some thoughts...

2005-11-02 17:24

Seven

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202

Quote: @seven: Maybe there should be a way to mirror csdb? The biggest point of csdb is that there is meta-information about who did what. This will be mostly lost with ftp-only archives. It's ofcourse the meta-info that makes it more work to upload here, but I think it is worth it.

As for the cracks I agree to some extent. The downloads can always be quickly disabled though, they are all flagged as "C64 crack" in the database.

I don't agree with the different releases of cracks being equivalent. As for history, the text in intro scrollers, ratings, etc... is very interresting. If the cracks weren't allowed in here, this could possibly be solved by ripping the intros, or just the whole scroll-text. But that's even more work.

I agree that it would be good to have the stuff on ftp aswell, but couldn't that be taken care of by a partial dump of files from csdb?

Just some thoughts...

Mirroring CSDb is a tricky thing...
CSDb runs on PostgreSQL, and while PostgreSQL allows master/slave replication it severely limits options of mirrors since most webhosters nowadays will only give you MySQL. With MySQL 5 replication would become a possibilty aswell, but it still leaves us with "just a copy" of the database and in a case of downtime we'd end up with a read-only database.
...unless you want to set up chained replication, but I have to admit that I have my doubts if that'd be advisable over the "public" internet.
A mirror also makes changes to the programming more difficult and opens new doors for abuse (you might recall the MacGyver discussion). Guys supplying a mirror would have to be _really_ reliable.

True, downloads for cracks could quickly be disabled. But then? They wouldn't be available anymore when people just upload to CSDb instead of uploading to the FTP sites... where's the point in that? It stays a fact.. mass-dowloading from an FTP site is way more convenient (and FTP sites are a lot more "mirror-able") than webpage downloads.

As for exchangeability of cracks.. I do realize that if what you were looking for was the intro-scrolltext in the SCS*TRC version of Bomb Mania the Onslaught version won't cut it, but if you want crack comparisons, Mason's project (once he's finished) will be much more suitable for that.

But then again... LOOK, according to CSDb there IS no SCS*TRC version of Bomb Mania... in fact, there is no cracked version at all... wonder how THAT happened *smirks*

2005-11-02 17:33

tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790

I think it would be a good first step if there was read only mirroring of csdb. I understand that read/write access from multiple sites is complex, both technically and securitywise.

I also agree that it is easier to download lots of stuff from ftp servers, and probably many people want to do this. But I also believe that there is quite a large crowd interrested in the scene history. For the latter use it's primarily the meta-information that is interresting, and here csdb is invaluable!
If the files of csdb where exported using an automated naming scheme (<group>_-_<release>.zip for example), we could have the best of both worlds.

2005-11-02 18:56

CyberBrain
Administrator

Posts: 392

Quoting Seven

$.03) Is it a problem that http://ftp.pokefinder.org doesn't supply unique results?

My opinion: Not necessarily. While you might not be able to find Bomb Mania/ONS, you might do just fine with Bomb Mania/SCS*TRC, even though Bomb Mania/SCS*TRC might not be listed on CSDb (yet).

$.04) Would it encourage people to not upload files (to CSDb)?

My opinion: Maybe so, but because of reasons given above I don't necessarily see that as a problem. However, maybe it'd encourage some people to upload to the FTP sites instead. Mass upload to FTP sites is much more convenient than uploading file by file to a webpage anyway.

$.05) Should people use http://ftp.pokefinder.org to find the file, download it and then upload it to CSDb?

http://ftp.pokefinder.org was created to supply a decent way to search multiple FTP sites for a file -
if one FTP site doesn't have it, another might. If one FTP site is down, another might not. In the days
of point'n'click web-users, http://ftp.pokefinder.org tries to be a convenient web interface for FTP -
servers that're available for exactly that: downloading (and uploading) files. It wasn't Count Zero's
intention to create a tool to help cannibalize the FTP sites and make them obsolete.

If you were referring to my post here, my point wasn't that CSDb should make FTP-sites obsolete, or people should stop using pokefinder. You can still use pokefinder even if there isn't a link to it from CSDb on the bottom of each release-page, and as you guys pointed out, FTP-sites are useful in another way than CSDb is.

My point is that if there is a release (in CSDb) without download-link, you use the pokefinder-link to search for the file and you actually find the correct file, you should add a download-link (or upload it - doesn't matter) so other people later can get the right file. So the pokefinder-link is only useful for the first person who clicks it, as he "should" add a download-link to the correct file.

What i'm saying is just that i'm not sure that the pokefinder-thing really fits into CSDb's framework.
I'm not saying that pokefinder is useless or something like that.

But if people like it, i guess it's fine :)

2005-11-02 19:13

Nafcom

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588

Quote: Quoting Seven

$.03) Is it a problem that http://ftp.pokefinder.org doesn't supply unique results?

My opinion: Not necessarily. While you might not be able to find Bomb Mania/ONS, you might do just fine with Bomb Mania/SCS*TRC, even though Bomb Mania/SCS*TRC might not be listed on CSDb (yet).

$.04) Would it encourage people to not upload files (to CSDb)?

My opinion: Maybe so, but because of reasons given above I don't necessarily see that as a problem. However, maybe it'd encourage some people to upload to the FTP sites instead. Mass upload to FTP sites is much more convenient than uploading file by file to a webpage anyway.

$.05) Should people use http://ftp.pokefinder.org to find the file, download it and then upload it to CSDb?

http://ftp.pokefinder.org was created to supply a decent way to search multiple FTP sites for a file -
if one FTP site doesn't have it, another might. If one FTP site is down, another might not. In the days
of point'n'click web-users, http://ftp.pokefinder.org tries to be a convenient web interface for FTP -
servers that're available for exactly that: downloading (and uploading) files. It wasn't Count Zero's
intention to create a tool to help cannibalize the FTP sites and make them obsolete.

If you were referring to my post here, my point wasn't that CSDb should make FTP-sites obsolete, or people should stop using pokefinder. You can still use pokefinder even if there isn't a link to it from CSDb on the bottom of each release-page, and as you guys pointed out, FTP-sites are useful in another way than CSDb is.

My point is that if there is a release (in CSDb) without download-link, you use the pokefinder-link to search for the file and you actually find the correct file, you should add a download-link (or upload it - doesn't matter) so other people later can get the right file. So the pokefinder-link is only useful for the first person who clicks it, as he "should" add a download-link to the correct file.

What i'm saying is just that i'm not sure that the pokefinder-thing really fits into CSDb's framework.
I'm not saying that pokefinder is useless or something like that.

But if people like it, i guess it's fine :)

I think it's matter wether to add a link or upload it.
Uploading it will be sure it's there and not lost, like a lot of releases that only got linked often result into a broken download link! :(

That is why I always do both, adding link and uploading the file :)

2005-11-02 19:28

Seven

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202

@tlr:

I'm all with you about the meta information and I agree that FTP servers are simply not the right platform for those, but they ARE the ideal platform for files and CSDb is not.

Yes, in theory exporting all the files with a halfway decent naming scheme would be a possibility, however, different FTP sites have different naming conventions for their files, and there's alway some kind user (read: admin) interaction required for moving the files to the proper directories.

I guess someone'd have to talk with an FTP admin or two to find out if they're interested or not.

... it'd still leave us with CSDb's "censorship" though ;)

@cyberbrain:

I just don't see people actually looking for every single file to add the download link when most can't even be hassled to upload the file to an FTP site. In a way CSDb is doing exactly that, trying to make FTP sites obsolete by providing a fool-proof upload feature, and in doing so actually somewhat increasing the danger of stuff eventually getting lost by concentrating everything in one place.

In the beginning CSDb was content using links only and all was fine, FTP admins made sure files were properly named and had the correct format (zipped d64, or - back in the day - gzipped prg or lnx/z64). Now, on CSDb, we have files named V2.d64 (anyone wanna guess what that unpacked disk image actually contains?) - and entries that 'forcefully' have their download links removed or are removed entirely.

Noone is forced to use http://ftp.pokefinder.org , if you want, remove it again, I just think it should be up to the user whether he'd like an alternative to the supplied (or in most cases: not supplied) download links on CSDb - with the positive side effect that some newbies might actually discover FTP when most people nowadays think that the World Wide Wait, Email and AOL is all there is to the internet.

2005-11-02 19:40

Nafcom

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588

I would suggest to keep it the way it is now and then wether really any of those "laziness and other" fears would happen.

2005-11-03 13:07

Perff
Administrator

Posts: 1679

a little remark..

Just to make it clear: CSDb is NOT trying to kill off ftp-sites or anything.
In fact, if some ftp-admins out there would want it, I would be happy to discuss with them how to make an export or whatever of the files uploaded to CSDb in any given structure based on the info, to put on the ftp-sites.
(Currently there has been uploaded 10585 unique files)

2005-11-03 14:54

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384

now that sounds like a good idea to me... should be easy enough to automatically rename them according to whatever ftp sites standard and upping them there (preferably on more than one ftp site for redundancy)

2005-11-03 15:31

Seven

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202

Thanks for clearing that up, Perff. The thing is, even though CSDb doesn't aim for it (and I never honestly believed that this might be the case), that's what, to a degree, is happening at the moment.

However, as Groepaz said, exporting the files for an FTP site or two sounds like a good idea.

Any FTP admins around? =D

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