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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

... 209 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2005-04-12 16:16

Jak T Rip

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 39

I am really depressed by all this needless hostality in the community. Why is it so much easier to pick on the projects others put so much effort in?

I can only say that Protovision does put a lot of effort in their projects.

The other thing I want to say is that MacGyver is a valuable and wonderful person who, like many of us, tries all he can to support the c64 in the way he can do that best. He is also one of the most active csdb users and has fixed many many entries with false information, which IS a good reason for him being an admin here (and now PRAY DONT pick on this like "I can imagine what kind of "false" information this would be." It's not all idiological)

btw: Hey, Vanja! It is wonderful to read that you are alive. Hope you are OK.

2005-04-12 16:19

Scout

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570

Quote: I really do not understand how some people here can be proud of their cracking career and do think why cracking is still essential today for the C64 scene.

I can hear them yell:
Jippieh, I am #1 in the "being lame by cracking unprotected games, adding some simple trainers and being able to link an intro infront of them" Top-10.

That cracking scene is no scene, it is a kindergarten.

Who really needs those people anyway? IMHO there are no challenges anymore to justify the existence of that scene!

Times have changed and the crackers lost their justification to exist.

Maybe there are some exceptions that make old games work with hardware they were not designed for as well as emulators and those people that preserve old software for the generations beyond. But besides that I can not see any justification to support such a scene.

Culture in that scene has died long ago. Sad as it is.
The Blue Ninja

You are totally and I mean TOTALLY missing the point here and about cracking historywise, Mr First-Time-on-CSDB-with-a-big-mouth-who-happens-to-be-a-Protovision-member-too!

Yo peeps! Devour him! =)

R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl

2005-04-12 16:28

Scout

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570

Quote: I am really depressed by all this needless hostality in the community. Why is it so much easier to pick on the projects others put so much effort in?

I can only say that Protovision does put a lot of effort in their projects.

The other thing I want to say is that MacGyver is a valuable and wonderful person who, like many of us, tries all he can to support the c64 in the way he can do that best. He is also one of the most active csdb users and has fixed many many entries with false information, which IS a good reason for him being an admin here (and now PRAY DONT pick on this like "I can imagine what kind of "false" information this would be." It's not all idiological)

btw: Hey, Vanja! It is wonderful to read that you are alive. Hope you are OK.

Maybe McGuyver is a nice person who helps old ladies crossing the street and gives soup away for the Salvation Army on Xmas evening but still he has no reason to

- Delete Protovision entries
- Unlock PTV entries, put them on his name, edit them and lock them again
- Investigate "anonymous" downvoters

All of this regardless of the CSDb disclaimer.
I call this lame and a mis-use of his admin-rights.

R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl

2005-04-12 16:30

H.O
Account closed

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 70

"That cracking scene is no scene, it is a kindergarten."

I am not certain whether this comment reflects to the cracking scene of today, or cracking in general. I interpreted the post as an attack on cracking in general, which is the basis of my reply here. If I misunderstood "TheBlueNinja" (and other posters) my apologies.

Also, my apologies in advance if I stray too far from the subject.

Anyway; Cracking is the basis of the demo scene as it is today. Anyone disrespecting what the crackers of before did, or the importance of cracking in the growth of the scene are basically disrespecting the demo scene of today (and past)

Demos grew out of intros, which grew out of cracking games. The distribution network that from the late 80:s was used to support a larger and larger demo-scene was a distribution network created to support cracking and the distribution of cracks.

That is why all groups wanted originalsuppliers and provide cracks of their own during the first 5-7 years of the c64 scene, since everyone know and acknowledged the importance cracking and crackers had for the scene as we knew it then.

Not until the late 80's did the focus shift into demos, where pure demo-swappers started to appear and where some group felt a need to distance themselves from cracking by naming themselves demogroups. In some parts this was caused by the demoscene getting a life of its own, but in some cases it was pure necessity; a lot of groups got busted in the late 80's and rather then quitting altogether they went to the legal scene, the demo scene.

I have no doubt there would still be a demo scene today, even it hadnt been for cracking, but that scene would have been born later and looked a lot different then what it did, and the demo scene today would also be a lot different.

If you disrespect cracks and crackers you disrespect those active in those days, the demo scene of the past and the demo scene as of today.

2005-04-12 16:48

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048

Quote: scene database := no public access, access applications, application reviews

Information on CSDb is readily available to anyone, most of it even without user account. It might not have accured to anyone yet, but while CSDb might be a database about the scene, it is not primarily a database for or by the scene... as proven by MacGyver being an admin =D

MacGyver is not scener? Are you the head of scener accreditation office? ;-) What is making him worse scener than for example you? Give me examples. But first try to check what he actually does for the scene.. maybe you would be surprised.

Roman

2005-04-12 17:00

The Overkiller
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 342

Seems that nowadays there's nothing interesting to say if many sceners start a witch hunting against cracking scene.

2005-04-12 17:01

The Blue Ninja
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 4

I had prepared a much longer posting last time, but it timed out without me saving it.

My last comment tells it all:
"Culture in that scene has died long ago. Sad as it is."

I respect the cracking scene as it was once. This might not be very clear in my statement. It surely is the founder of the creative scene (this means all those people creativly producing output, as demo-scene is just too limiting) as it is today.

But the cracking scene lost this role many years ago. When I started being at the scene 1989 the demo/legal scene already existed. We already had this discussion back then when lamers cracked "magic disk"- and "game on"-titles and were proud of it.

Do you understand what I mean? People like that should be ashamed to be proud of doing that!

Back then crackers were needed (thinking of the giant amount of games that nobody could afford to buy them all), but nowadays with just a few commercial titles per year? Who needs crackers now? The scene? What for? In my first post I wrote some reasons that may justify crackers today like modifying games for new hardware and fixes. But releasing those few games without any (real) added value is no justification in my mind.

I knew that I would upset some people (as I have). And: Yes I may not be a member of the scene anymore in some people's eyes. But I supported the C64 longer than many of those "legends" that left it long ago, me being creative and productive.

The Blue Ninja

2005-04-12 17:12

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048

MacGyver is member of my group - Dmagic. He does a lot of support for c64.sk and CSDB which cooperate together since the beginnig. It's a positive cooperation for both sides and if you have individual problems with Maccie please discuss them privately with him. The Protovision releases aren't your property, so how can you blame him for guarding it the every possible way, especially when he does a lot of other things which help this database? There are other ways how to get that "live" software. Get it on ftp sites, or ask for e-mail sending or whatever else. Do you really need to have download link here? If you do, ask Perff for direct answer.

One thing is keeping scene traditions, and other is direct spitting into face of Protovision members and programmers, some of them even sceners. It's a "doublethink" paradox of this scene. But consider the fact that this is happening publicly and online. It's not as in past, when this was a sort-of undergorond activity. Now when there are no law enforcements and no criminal prosecution of such activites it's just about communication between us sceners. I find it quite malicious to blame Protovision for their naive, but understandable activities.

roman

2005-04-12 17:19

Scout

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570

*sigh*

---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl

2005-04-12 17:26

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048

Quote: * Is this a SCENE database or a SALES database?

* What type of scene database pays attention to copyright? A kiddie-database? Surely this site can handle such releases without this wild-censoring. The releases on FTP sites are NOT the responsibility of this database's administration.

* Does the whole argument about piracy have to be done all over again within the scene? That is crazy. This scene has existed for two decades, shouldn't we be the most mature scene of them all? Or are we still trying to discuss the principles?

* And it seems crack intros are a casualty of the whole crack thing on csdb as well, that's just not right!

Jazzcat you know my opinion about this problem. It's about the fact that scene distances shrunk... keeping traditions is harming your "eighbour" feelings.. today.. how many active sceners are there 1000? 2000? Stealing in communism was not considered bad thing to do.. people stole from resources which belonged to everyone, so why should they care. Today it's different... if you steal from your company you steal the property of your boss.. you are harming someone you know. And this is similar with today scene.. it's so small that all we do is sooner or later affecting our future. That's why I don't "eat" all those old traditions.. My sympathy or antipathy towards protovision doesn't have anything to do with that...

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