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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Howdy
Hi there. It's my first post here, so lemme introduce myself. I'm angelo, or æn.d͡ʒə.loʊ, or unj, a founder of KSKPD, the group behind polish unesco application.
I'm in process of researching some early-computing stuff, including an idea planted by @Krill and @bitfat, that the default narrative of "In the beginning it was a cracker scene, that developed into demoscene later because $REASONS" might be worth challenging.
I might be asking in various sub-forums questions around data on this site, but while I used to be a part of demoscene as a coder (1995+), I also owned PC exclusively since my first computer in like 1990. I skipped 8bit phase completely, so please bare with me, if the questions sound obvious or straight-up outrageously naive :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: @Oswald
I admit, your proud ignorance annoys the cr*p out of me.
Your constant personal attacks, grow up man, other ppl have other ideas than you. Why does it make you so angry ? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@Oswald
It’s not a deliberate personal attack per se, I don’t mean to offend you, I’m stating my opinion of you based on observation.
I’m not angry, I guess one reason this stance of yours annoys me is because I see this a lot lately, this lack of understanding of how social science/history, well in fact all science which cannot promptly provide empirical evidence works: You put forth a theory based on what research is available. This theory stands until a better argumented and evidenced theory is put forth, putting the earlier theory to rest. It’s not “a battle of personal opinions”. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: @Oswald
It’s not a deliberate personal attack per se, I don’t mean to offend you, I’m stating my opinion of you based on observation.
I’m not angry, I guess one reason this stance of yours annoys me is because I see this a lot lately, this lack of understanding of how social science/history, well in fact all science which cannot promptly provide empirical evidence works: You put forth a theory based on what research is available. This theory stands until a better argumented and evidenced theory is put forth, putting the earlier theory to rest. It’s not “a battle of personal opinions”.
again this bullshit.
scientific theory is not based on empirical fact(s). it's just guesswork under a different label.
science without empirical evidence doesnt work.
your opinion is not fact.
and your personal attack is not a rational observation.
stop. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452 |
Well, I do not know what all the research is or its findings are exactly, but I doubt that it claims that the events unfolded the same way for everyone. So it is not in my opinion correct to impose that finding onto the whole population either or back propagate it to past, or to impose restrictions to a review simply by just dismissing our differing views on the life back then. At worst the new study will replicate and confirm previous result, which would be unprecedented in social sciences I believe. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting 4gentEQuote:They swapped the software they wrote, as simple as that. And it was pretty much what everyone who owned a computer in the 70 and early 80s did. The concept of "copyright" was invented later. Or even the concept of buying it for that matter :) Reading this, I think I perhaps see where the misunderstanding lies. For some reason when talking about the emergence of the demoscene, I thought we were talking about this subculture that arose in teenage computer user circles in mid 80s mainly on C64. Continued on Amiga, ST and others. Reagan times. When it was already well defined that software (read games) had to be bought. I never included 70s [...] Copyright on software was explicitly codified in law (and then enforced) in several parts of Europe only as late as the mid-1980s or later, which means that it wasn't a notable thing in the early days of the C-64 scene (much less for earlier platforms).
That early scene did establish means of distribution already, and all kinds of software, scene-made and not, flowed across them.
"The demoscene", as a separate entity distinguishable from the "cracking scene", did not emerge before the mid-1980s, which doesn't seem to be contested by anyone. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting 4gentEtheir data pool could be too small
Which in this case I guess will always be a problem.
I'd think in general you can assume that the "idea" of demoscene is maybe "older" – just because the "idea" of software as "intellectual property" and therefore the "idea" of "stealing" / "cracking" this "property" has to be younger than that.
But that doesn't take the social interaction part of the scene into account.
I personally don't know. I'm one of the younger lads here, had never any connection to either scene when I was a kid, but even I as a "none scener" 10 year old did "both":
I "cracked" Turtles II that I got from a class mate by just duplicating one file naming it like the other and I made a lot of "music" in trackers and programmed a ton of (of course unfinished) basic adventures and (tried) to code some "intros" in assembler.
I always imagined that was what the other kids were doing as well – only way better than me :-) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:…but I doubt that it claims that the events unfolded the same way for everyone.
It’s an approximation. As all definitions of roots of a subculture are. Something had to be written. Oh I don’t know how to put this: There were bands during punk explosion that played trumpets. Or castanets. Or pan flutes. Or acapella. Still, part of the subculture. When history account says that typical punk band consisted of a drummer, bassist, guitarrist and a singer - it’s not wrong. Nobody is denying anybody their personal history. It seems that when making interviews, past researchers into demoscene roots concluded that the largest percentage of interviewed people got into the scene through crackerscene. One way or the other. My personal experience and that of a dozen people whose experience I heard or read state the same: “I saw some intros in front of games, I liked what I saw, wondered how they work, learnt how to change them to my liking, fell for this whole teenage subculture, what with groups like some kinda gangs, the notoriety and all.” So, never cracked a game, but acknowledging the culture that gave them knowledge, maybe style, certainly and an idea what to code.
What Krill suggests (if I’m not mistaken) is that more people got into the scene even earlier through pure democoding. If this is true than the new approximation in a new paper will state that “demoscene developed paralel and only slightly related to the crackerscene.” And I’d be perfectly fine with that. Until then, the old research stands. And that research does not rob anyone of his personal experience for chrissake. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:scientific theory is not based on empirical fact(s). it's just guesswork under a different label.
No, that would be hypothesis. And even hypothesis is not guesswork, it’s a product of inductive reasoning. Scientific theory is something else.
Oswald, it’s not a problem that you don’t understand something, it’s that you don’t want to understand because you wrongly think that you do understand. Trump acts like this all the time.
Imagine if I argued with you about how a pixel plotter is coded. And in my first sentence it becomes obvious to you that I don’t even understand what a pixel plotter is. And I still keep arguing. |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
All "scenes" grew out of ego and the need to show off and make people feel good about themselves and how cool they are and how much better they are than others, or whatever. There is no purity in the "scene". I think you're trying to apply values and think there is some kind of organized effort that just didn't exist until later.
There was crossover, and to me they are one and the same. Snobby people just came along and said that demo and cracking scenes are separate and not just the commodore 64 scene which encompasses are larger body of works and people, including user groups and hardware hackers and etc etc. It's just more elitist bullshit trying to exclude things and put them in boxes rather than encompass them as a whole because some people like to compartmentalize things and separate things they don't like from the larger whole.
IMO these are useless arguments and have squat to do with "history" and more to do with snobby elitism. |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 251 |
@krill, but ... the problem of copying existed from very early on. copyprotections did not come up because of copyright law. it was because of the copying. actually: tape duplication. see this https://archive.org/details/Commercial_Breaks_-_The_Battle_For_.. |
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