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2013-12-30 09:27

Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 501

boobsploitation

So i never understood the fuzz about choosing boobs as a motif. Nude bodies have always been part of art. Also boobs are a thankful motif, as they keep one motivated to continue and finish a picture. Actually i adore and worship the female body. For me, nothing does feel wrong about that. But i somehow feel like there's a lot of mental masturbation going on. So feel free to bring your arguments against boobs forward. Maybe some nice drama will develop from that!
And yes, of course i'll continue drawing boobs, don't bother :-)

... 251 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2014-01-04 13:17

Mermaid

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338

I guess I'm one of the "complainers"? Let me begin by pointing out that I have no problem with pictures like Nightflight. I think Deev makes some excellent points.

Quoting Jailbird

in my experience the demoscene in general is quite accepting when it comes to female (or LGBT or any kind of non-male/non-heterosexual) sceners

In your experience, as a male heterosexual? I'm glad you haven't experienced the amount of hatred and ridicule I've been met with, the people telling me that the only reason people vote for me is because I have tits, the batshit insane people who send me anonymous emails with manipulated pictures and crazed ramblings. And the flip side of the coin, having creepy stalkers make websites about me. Not any better. I wouldn't assume that the scene in general is any better than society in general because in my experience it is just as bad if not worse.

Quoting algorithm

I would add that its each to their own. Dont know what other people think, but i do things the way i want to without considering satisfying others. If that gets low votes because of this, then so be it. I dont care :-)

Exactly. I have no illusions of being able to stop anyone from making what they want. I'll still voice my opinion on their release if I've watched it, but I tend to avoid releases from certain people when it becomes clear to me that I'm in no way part of their "target audience".

Quoting Six

There's always that one guy - the one who puts on to be the militant feminist - and all the other guys aren't supposed to realize that he's simply hoping some woman will notice and bang him for it.

See Hollowman's response above.

2014-01-04 13:19

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036

<Post edited by CreaMD on 4/1-2014 14:41>

Hollowman: I find some comments stupid too, but being a sarcastic misanthrope for the whole period of time I know (about) you, doesn't make you (seem) any more evolved than others you despise in your comment." target=_blank>http://csdb.dk/release/?id=63823[/PETDel]

2014-01-04 13:39

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036

Ok, let's take it one step further to the utter outrageousness department with this NSFW artwork.

Ripeness

Some silly comments there but this one by Jailbird has exactly describing my feelings

"Aarh, damn it. Well pixelled and all but really disturbing! D="

It's disturbing. Weird, filling you feelings of irrational guilt (caused by being raised as christian?) when looking at it. I would definitely not try to present it as my favourite pic, but I remember that it sort of shocked me when I first saw it and I try to respect it since then. I find it a great piece of art while at the same time I consider it obscene, and inappropriate. It is not something I want to see in other works, but I still think it has it's place in the history of art on C64. Does anyone disagree?

p.s.: back to comfortable zone... Lilith

2014-01-04 14:14

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576

@CreaMD: well, if I'd have to show these pictures to my child and illustrate their message, meaning or moral if she questions them, I'd probably have a much easier job with Bitbreaker's piece. Whilst I am not even sure if I'd like her to see Electric's work.

Ripeness disturbed me simply because the really weird, unnatural anatomy, I usually don't mind nude curves :)

Quoting Mermaid

In your experience, as a male heterosexual? I'm glad you haven't experienced the amount of hatred and ridicule I've been met with, the people telling me that the only reason people vote for me is because I have tits, the batshit insane people who send me anonymous emails with manipulated pictures and crazed ramblings. And the flip side of the coin, having creepy stalkers make websites about me. Not any better. I wouldn't assume that the scene in general is any better than society in general because in my experience it is just as bad if not worse.

That's really sad, and I'm wholeheartedly sorry.

Speaking of myself, IRL I've experienced years of severe mental/physical abuse based on assumed higher ground principles, prejudice or sole observational and speculative judgement, but I still don't determine a certain community's ethics or virtue as a whole by the deeds of immature, gullible individuals who didn't know better.

On a highly competitive platform as the scene is, even males experience really serious attacks/hostility. It is mostly based on grudge and/or envy/rivalry. Of course it's not an excuse for people attacking you, or act like idiots in any way, but shortsighted, destructive and sociopathic people exist everywhere, especially where they could easily hide behind a wall of anonymity.

Still, by knowing really a lot of sceners in person, I'd say that most of them I've met or built up friendships with are far from being chauvinistic, biased or narrow minded (at least publicly), all the more the opposite.

2014-01-04 14:38

Mermaid

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338

Quoting Jailbird

I still don't determine a certain community's ethics or virtue as a whole by the deeds of immature, gullible individuals who didn't know better.

I try not to do that either. My point isn't that the scene as a whole is a terrible thing (it most certainly is not - most sceners are very friendly and nice) because of some individuals, it's that the scene is not really any better than the rest of (western) society.

Quoting Jailbird

even males experience really serious attacks/hostility. It is mostly based on grudge and/or envy/rivalry.

True, but I don't think anyone in the scene gets attacked/targeted for being male.

Quoting Jailbird

shortsighted, destructive and sociopathic people exist everywhere, especially if they could easily hide behind a wall of anonymity.

This is sadly true.

2014-01-04 14:49

Mermaid

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338

Quoting Groepaz

a much more interesting question to me is: why don't female artists do the same with men and penises?

2014-01-04 15:32

algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 703

Quote: I guess I'm one of the "complainers"? Let me begin by pointing out that I have no problem with pictures like Nightflight. I think Deev makes some excellent points.

Quoting Jailbird
in my experience the demoscene in general is quite accepting when it comes to female (or LGBT or any kind of non-male/non-heterosexual) sceners

In your experience, as a male heterosexual? I'm glad you haven't experienced the amount of hatred and ridicule I've been met with, the people telling me that the only reason people vote for me is because I have tits, the batshit insane people who send me anonymous emails with manipulated pictures and crazed ramblings. And the flip side of the coin, having creepy stalkers make websites about me. Not any better. I wouldn't assume that the scene in general is any better than society in general because in my experience it is just as bad if not worse.

Quoting algorithm
I would add that its each to their own. Dont know what other people think, but i do things the way i want to without considering satisfying others. If that gets low votes because of this, then so be it. I dont care :-)

Exactly. I have no illusions of being able to stop anyone from making what they want. I'll still voice my opinion on their release if I've watched it, but I tend to avoid releases from certain people when it becomes clear to me that I'm in no way part of their "target audience".

Quoting Six
There's always that one guy - the one who puts on to be the militant feminist - and all the other guys aren't supposed to realize that he's simply hoping some woman will notice and bang him for it.

See Hollowman's response above.

Quoting mermaid

Exactly. I have no illusions of being able to stop anyone from making what they want. I'll still voice my opinion on their release if I've watched it, but I tend to avoid releases from certain people when it becomes clear to me that I'm in no way part of their "target audience".

This is the way it should be. Overall everyone is entitled to create what they want and on the other hand, everyone is entitled to see or vote what they want according to their taste and ethics!

2014-01-04 15:40

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576

Quoting Mermaid

I try not to do that either. My point isn't that the scene as a whole is a terrible thing (it most certainly is not - most sceners are very friendly and nice) because of some individuals, it's that the scene is not really any better than the rest of (western) society.

I think I mentioned something similar in one of my first comments. And that's one of the reasons I don't understand the controversy here.

The other is, if we'd have a similar number of women on the scene as there are men, I'm sure that roughly an equal amount of nudes would appear from them as well. In paralell, just take a look at the many works based on sexuality/nudity/shock value of any influential contemporary/modern female (including feminist) artists: Cindy Sherman, Marina Abramović, Frida Kahlo, Magdalena Abakanowicz, June Leaf, Judy Chicago, Tracey Emin... - just to name a few.

Nudity/sex is a central theme for many artists, regardless of their gender. The scene has more nude representation of females done by, and then celebrated by males simply because our community mainly consist of men - and thus, we're labeled sexists. Besides the many sweaty, ripped, half-naked dudes on various Vallejos and Bells, I've seen tasteful male erotic images released as well.

Where is the line where we decide if something is "boobsploitation" or an honest aesthetic creation?

I also wonder how many of you would call this "art" and hang it on your wall if a male C64 scener did it on a 320x200/16col screen.

2014-01-04 17:45

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

I have to be quick as Im going out soon

JB: I dont think anyone is saying all nudity and sex in art is wrong, but *most* C64 nudity is simply about lusting after breasts and is a representation of the attitudes that see women treated as sex objects and unequal men. I'm not particularly a fan of Tracey Emin, though I do think the picture above is very different to a fantasy depiction of a woman who just can't wait to have sex with C64 sceners.

I doubt anyone saw Electrics pic and it made them want to punch someone. If it made your girlfriend feel a little uneasy, its probably because violence makes most people feel uneasy, clearly the same cant be said of sexism. To compare violence with sexism, I believe that you need to look at situations where some people justify violence against a group of people, which is why I brought up swastikas and racism.

There may be times where a woman has said something that sounds sexist or a woman was not offended by something, but you need to look at the big picture.

I do also think that *because* the C64 scene does have such a high percentage of males, it would be good if it seemed more welcoming to women, rather than some kind of men only club where people get excited over lowres nipples.

Algorithm: I agree with doing something that you want to, rather than because someone tells you to. I do think, however, that you need to respect the feelings of others when doing what you want. If I want to listen to loud music at 4am when my neighbour is sleeping, is that ok? If I decide the house across the road is ruining my view, is it ok to burn it down? Ok, extreme example, but just pointing out that there is a line that most people wouldnt cross, though it seems the position of that line varies quite a bit.

2014-01-04 18:11

algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 703

Quote: I have to be quick as Im going out soon

JB: I dont think anyone is saying all nudity and sex in art is wrong, but *most* C64 nudity is simply about lusting after breasts and is a representation of the attitudes that see women treated as sex objects and unequal men. I'm not particularly a fan of Tracey Emin, though I do think the picture above is very different to a fantasy depiction of a woman who just can't wait to have sex with C64 sceners.

I doubt anyone saw Electrics pic and it made them want to punch someone. If it made your girlfriend feel a little uneasy, its probably because violence makes most people feel uneasy, clearly the same cant be said of sexism. To compare violence with sexism, I believe that you need to look at situations where some people justify violence against a group of people, which is why I brought up swastikas and racism.

There may be times where a woman has said something that sounds sexist or a woman was not offended by something, but you need to look at the big picture.

I do also think that *because* the C64 scene does have such a high percentage of males, it would be good if it seemed more welcoming to women, rather than some kind of men only club where people get excited over lowres nipples.

Algorithm: I agree with doing something that you want to, rather than because someone tells you to. I do think, however, that you need to respect the feelings of others when doing what you want. If I want to listen to loud music at 4am when my neighbour is sleeping, is that ok? If I decide the house across the road is ruining my view, is it ok to burn it down? Ok, extreme example, but just pointing out that there is a line that most people wouldnt cross, though it seems the position of that line varies quite a bit.

The analogy of listening to loud music in comparison to a c64 demo is rather flawed however. People have an easy choice to avoid a c64 demo (if it contains anything that may offend them) - (which is what I had mentioned earlier) in comparison to having to withstand the noise from neighbours and/or call police for these noisy neighbours.

In regards to respecting the feeling of others, what if someone would be disgusted at demo's featuring cute animals or cartoons all the time, Would the coder/designer of this demo have to respect the feelings and stop doing demo's like this?

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