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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Howdy
Hi there. It's my first post here, so lemme introduce myself. I'm angelo, or æn.d͡ʒə.loʊ, or unj, a founder of KSKPD, the group behind polish unesco application.
I'm in process of researching some early-computing stuff, including an idea planted by @Krill and @bitfat, that the default narrative of "In the beginning it was a cracker scene, that developed into demoscene later because $REASONS" might be worth challenging.
I might be asking in various sub-forums questions around data on this site, but while I used to be a part of demoscene as a coder (1995+), I also owned PC exclusively since my first computer in like 1990. I skipped 8bit phase completely, so please bare with me, if the questions sound obvious or straight-up outrageously naive :) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
All "scenes" grew out of ego and the need to show off and make people feel good about themselves and how cool they are and how much better they are than others, or whatever. There is no purity in the "scene". I think you're trying to apply values and think there is some kind of organized effort that just didn't exist until later.
There was crossover, and to me they are one and the same. Snobby people just came along and said that demo and cracking scenes are separate and not just the commodore 64 scene which encompasses are larger body of works and people, including user groups and hardware hackers and etc etc. It's just more elitist bullshit trying to exclude things and put them in boxes rather than encompass them as a whole because some people like to compartmentalize things and separate things they don't like from the larger whole.
IMO these are useless arguments and have squat to do with "history" and more to do with snobby elitism. |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 251 |
@krill, but ... the problem of copying existed from very early on. copyprotections did not come up because of copyright law. it was because of the copying. actually: tape duplication. see this https://archive.org/details/Commercial_Breaks_-_The_Battle_For_.. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
I thought exactly that. Copy protection did not come to be because copyright law was well established and firmly enforced, but for exactly the opposite reason. |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 251 |
I feel like i should write an article about this, if only i wasnt allergic to academia, it seems i have made my research, but was too lazy to write dat shit down.
Next to the Ocean/Imagine story video by the BBC there are two more very important documentaries from 84/85, one is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZFonUaAkNg (Computerfieber)
which shows the reflection of computer activities in the german bourgeoisie - funny that GROEPAZ is mentioned there, but he insists the name similarity is purely coincidal (i would, too) and the other one is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_NElnJKafI (Wild in den Straßen - St. Pauli Champs)
-- this one has little to zero computer relevance, but shows, how the U.S. Street-Gang mentality bled over to Germany and made youth groups form prominently named gangs.
Just in case you wonder where all that "group" and "naming" spirit of the 80s cracers(Sic) came from.
Ofcourse, there may have been one or two and a half art students in Marburg and Bielefeld with a cat, who thought like "oh this is omazing, i am going to write a demonstration program to show my skills", but: for which audience? Home-computers were a teenage thing. (Proof: Advertisements for video games)
I remember being a nerd in 1987 and nobody liked nerds, because the term nerd wasn't a thing and thus i just was a computer-idiot. x-marked for bullying.
Surely, you have art from professional artists who even used computers, but that was a non hobbyist thing. Imho, the demoscene was invented by the media in late 1980s, because they were talking to "cracer scene" people who could deliver them interesting content for their magazine disks. See 64er Sprite Multiplexer Competition 64'er was a very influential, well selling Magazine that focused on things C64 and they had a coverdisk. It is my personal opinion, that this was the moment, when the demoscene came into existence, when Cracer groups formed "legal" sections that only produced legal content to be published and picked up (for money) by magazines. Because magazines could not sell warez. And that way, the whole crime-gang thing slowly turned. (Please credit me as Sebastian I. Hartmann, big thx)
Think about this:
1.) Among todays teenagers, do you see any _notable_ mobile-phone demomaking efforts with mainstream attention? Why not?
2.) Is Tiktok perhaps an alternative demomaking platform? What are they demonstrating? |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
Piracy started the minute someone released software... in the 70's, people were pirating things for every single computer system. It didn't start with C64, nor did "branding", or as I said bragging rights. They were pirating arcade games too, from pong onwards. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting wsthe problem of copying existed from very early on. copyprotections did not come up because of copyright law. it was because of the copying. Quoting 4gentECopy protection did not come to be because copyright law was well established and firmly enforced, but for exactly the opposite reason. I didn't say that copyright and copy protections had any relation.
The point was that the early scene copied and spread anything they could, well before widespread copy protections or enforced legal restrictions were in place. And that perfectly-legal-to-copy stuff was spread, too. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732 |
Quote: Correction: you're not correcting what I've said, just adding to it.
Yes, and no. "Accept it" implies a stop and passive acceptance. I added upon that so that there is no stop, thus correcting it. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: Yes, and no. "Accept it" implies a stop and passive acceptance. I added upon that so that there is no stop, thus correcting it.
there was nothing wrong with I have written, thus there was nothing to correct. Acceptance of proofs only doesnt means that the further intricacies of the scirentific method are invalid / non existing. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:"The demoscene", as a separate entity distinguishable from the "cracking scene", did not emerge before the mid-1980s, which doesn't seem to be contested by anyone.
Here's the (seemingly, I guess) agreed upon thesis.
Quote:Imho, the demoscene was invented by the media in late 1980s, because they were talking to "cracer scene" people who could deliver them interesting content for their magazine disks. See 64er Sprite Multiplexer Competition 64'er was a very influential, well selling Magazine that focused on things C64 and they had a coverdisk. It is my personal opinion, that this was the moment, when the demoscene came into existence, when Cracer groups formed "legal" sections that only produced legal content to be published and picked up (for money) by magazines. Because magazines could not sell warez. And that way, the whole crime-gang thing slowly turned.
And here is a perfectly valid explanation imho.
If this holds then "demoscene emanated from crackerscene" sounds like just about the right way to explain the roots to outsiders without too much philosophy. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
I find it very unlikely that a German-language print magazine (or media in general) "invented" the demoscene.
And my point is still that the moment a separate "cracker scene" was born (even if only as handy catchword) was the moment a separate "demoscene" was born, and vice-versa.
Both "emanated" from a common ancestor which had had a "legal section" all along.
Siblings, not parent and child. |
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