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2004-08-05 07:54

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

LCP 2004 demos

What do you think ?

I'm sad, as there were no real coder's demos.

Afrika - we 've seen all these effects 10 years before

Triad,Flt - The design / theme of the demos were not good
enough to excuse for no spectacular codings.

Effluvium - the code was not good enough to excuse no gfx/design/whatever.

are there really no coders out there, that can come up with new stuff ?

... 131 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2004-08-06 22:26

Sat
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 12

I never considered my self acting as high and mighty (Actually I point out more than once that my opinion probably only match 10% of the sceners). I just have an opinion and can back it up.
I never claimed to be superior at anything or being part of the golden scene as you call it. I participated in my own way and at my own terms and we had fun.

I only say what inspired and inspires me to program and produce for the scene, and what bothers me about the scene. Never did I say my opinion matters more than yours and by the same rule I never take any one from the golden scene words as more than just another opinion.

The reason that there where few art demos were probably that people where younger and had new ideas or improvements to do and also had the required time to spend. Lately when the scene started dying concept things started to appear for various reasons none of which I agree with.

Just as you hate the demos I like. I hate the art demos because they only show something I see a zillion times in other mediums and often in much better quality (yeah I find the C64 doesnt have the right power to present such stuff properly) and because they dont inspire me to produce new code. Remember that your argument has two sides just as the concept demos keep you active in the scene it would be what would have kept me away if it was the only thing to do.

You find them to have more depth I find them to present attempts at depth none of which has inspired me as much as art on other mediums.

They are by definition less special to me if they don't match my definition for a demo.

You are all extremely offended just because I dont like the same type of demos as you, take it easy get along.

2004-08-06 22:53

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

sat, yeah, how can someone be offended by you popping up
here after 10 years, telling those who make 'art demos'
to move to another scene.
that is just your oh so humble opinion. just like your
constructive criticism towards me, that what i do
is totally wrong. very subtle. i'll keep that in mind
but where are the rest of the 10% of the scene you represent?
why arent they giving me some friendly advice to leave
the c64 scene? shall we set up an opinion poll?

and before you continue lecturing me, you could check
loaded, the first half of emanation machine, and the
second half of wok zombie(one half=one tune). you might
identify parts of it as (non elite) code. in vice you can hit
alt-w preventing yourself from wasting too much of your
precious time on my silly fades

or go watch demos from 1989, people were so imaginative
back then. and they had so much spare time, not like today
when you type down 321 KB of sourcecode during an afternoon
and release a superficial art demo and get all the glory

2004-08-06 22:59

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Sat, calling yourself one of the 'initiated', sorry, but to me that's acting high and mighty.

Anyway, I don't "hate" the demos you like, some of them even get my 'dick hard' so to speak. Most of them bore me though, but I would never give any of those a '1'. But like you said, what good is the voting system if you can't do that if you want?

Answer: it's no good, no good at all.

Also, I'm not offended, why would I? Believe me, I've heard far worse than this, I just think there are big holes in your reasoning. I really doubt you've seen most of the demos I'm talking about, yet you're eager to call them all failed attempts at depth, and claim such a thing could never be done at the c64 anyway. Why not? Just because you don't know how doesn't mean it's not possible.

Limits are there to be broken, and while you're praising one group (the technical coders) for trying to do so, you're slagging down the other (the concept coders so to speak) for doing the very same thing.

Something does not compute here.

2004-08-06 23:04

Puterman
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188

I wonder why Sat's posts remind me so much of Radar's. Could it be that someone who pops up after 10 years of inactivity to lecture about how the scene has degenerated since the days when they were active just looks like good old conservatism?

2004-08-06 23:08

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942

The reason that there where few art demos were probably that people where younger and had new ideas or improvements to do and also had the required time to spend. Lately when the scene started dying concept things started to appear for various reasons none of which I agree with.

>Think that some priorities have changed over the years for >some sceners.

Just as you hate the demos I like. I hate the art demos because they only show something I see a zillion times in other mediums and often in much better quality (yeah I find the C64 doesnt have the right power to present such stuff properly) and because they dont inspire me to produce new code. Remember that your argument has two sides just as the concept demos keep you active in the scene it would be what would have kept me away if it was the only thing to do.

>I've seen better code on more powerfull machines than c64, >not a zillion times, I admid that.
>The c64 is a perfect machine to show simple but effective >ideas. It's about abstracting things to less, and a c64 >got less, so for that purpose a c64 is a handy tool. Than >again, there are a lot of artists who dislike abstract art.
>A concept is a concept, it won't be different on any >medium, only the technique behind it. If a concept stinks
>(which is a matter of taste, too), fancy techniques cannot >make it better. Some people prefer the raw sound of >Hendrix, others prefer the shiny hairdo from Malmsteen or >Satriani. Jaikes, that's a mean comparison.

You find them to have more depth I find them to present attempts at depth none of which has inspired me as much as art on other mediums.

>I can imagine it doesn't. There is so much art that's not >done on c64, just like there has been math long before the >c64. It's just about having fun, either in this scene, or >in another one.

<snipperdesnip>

2004-08-06 23:13

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942

Quote: The reason that there where few art demos were probably that people where younger and had new ideas or improvements to do and also had the required time to spend. Lately when the scene started dying concept things started to appear for various reasons none of which I agree with.

>Think that some priorities have changed over the years for >some sceners.

Just as you hate the demos I like. I hate the art demos because they only show something I see a zillion times in other mediums and often in much better quality (yeah I find the C64 doesnt have the right power to present such stuff properly) and because they dont inspire me to produce new code. Remember that your argument has two sides just as the concept demos keep you active in the scene it would be what would have kept me away if it was the only thing to do.

>I've seen better code on more powerfull machines than c64, >not a zillion times, I admid that.
>The c64 is a perfect machine to show simple but effective >ideas. It's about abstracting things to less, and a c64 >got less, so for that purpose a c64 is a handy tool. Than >again, there are a lot of artists who dislike abstract art.
>A concept is a concept, it won't be different on any >medium, only the technique behind it. If a concept stinks
>(which is a matter of taste, too), fancy techniques cannot >make it better. Some people prefer the raw sound of >Hendrix, others prefer the shiny hairdo from Malmsteen or >Satriani. Jaikes, that's a mean comparison.

You find them to have more depth I find them to present attempts at depth none of which has inspired me as much as art on other mediums.

>I can imagine it doesn't. There is so much art that's not >done on c64, just like there has been math long before the >c64. It's just about having fun, either in this scene, or >in another one.

<snipperdesnip>

Hmmm.. this is not a Usenet debate on google..

2004-08-06 23:27

Sat
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 12

Heh so much anger.

Its more constructive than if I had just said man thats awful fuck off, I told you why I thought it was awful. Its also a lot easier to do demos these days where you have proper editors and cross assemblers.

With regards to the fades I said for a good demo they can make it better but I never required it nor gave a demo much better rating just because it did them.

I dont lecture I give an alternate opinion. Its funny how everything is whining or lecturing these days.

Initiated only means that you have to know why something is hard or nice. A guy that doesnt know about the side border for example would just look at it dumbfound and never even think why having X in the side border is cool or why 8 sprites on a line with open side-border and a logo is neat. Often (notice I say often) non programmers dont know and its not something you can ever show to a non scener which you can with art demos, as it is art and most people have an opinion about it.

Im sorry for you if you cant handle an alternative opinion and persons that rate according to their own opinion instead of a scene opinion. I admit my first few posts might have been a bit lacking on why I think as I do, but I would like to think I explained myself.

What do being away for 10 years have to do with how valid my opinion is?
If I find it boring and uninspiring, should I still rate it with 10?

If its something I delete right after watching it, its a 1 in my book.

The only reason I am even active again is because I found this site on google by accident, and then stumbled upon YKTR, Demus Interruptus and stuff like it. Not many of the other new productions I have watched inspired me.

The prime reason I might do another demo is because the platform has so many limits that the code becomes a real challenge to write. If I could do something I know I considered impossible 10 years ago then I would be happy.
It might happen it might not.

2004-08-07 02:25

Dane
Account closed

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421

Sat, Oswald...or anyone who wants to meddle in this discussion - you might want to consider phrasing. Saying "ok, Borderline wsn't my kind of demo but congrats on #2" is a lot nicer than "wtf art suxxor - leave the scene".

It's also very fun to read about the Swedish 'arty-scene'. Apparently, since I'm a Swedish demo-scener, what I do is artsy as opposed to technical, if I understand some of the blaha in this thread right. I guess it's time to give up on digis, x-fli, rotating objects and stretchers then, or move to Germany (where everything released of course is technical and not arty).

Also, even though I don't want to use the "I'm in so many top 10 productions on CSDB"-argument - try to balance all of the pretty stuff that you have to say (whoever you are) with doing some pretty stuff. If you want to preach about arty demos - well, release a few. Same goes if you want to save us with border sprites and kefrens bars - get a couple of releases or I won't take you that seriously. Sorry.

(Psst Hein, I'll show you how to do a sideborder-scroll)

Congrats to Dandruf for ripping a 10 year old tune for the Afrika demo to match the 10 year old effects.

2004-08-07 04:17

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

Sticking to topic, I think I saw some new effects - so I don't complain. And I don't mind re-used code, as long as the demo has messages and possibly nice art.

There's still a lot more that can be done, and it just takes a single new idea to spawn new life to more ideas.

Keep going!

The Brudbilder demo, I find interresting, because it's a crazy idea that just works.

2004-08-07 06:54

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Wow. Sat, you sure got a way with words. Basically you accidentely stumble on this site, realize there's still a scene, find a few good old-fashioned demos you like and dismiss the rest as art that doesn't belong on the c64 because you don't think it can work. And when people react to that (in a quite civilised way I may add, I haven't seen one person here using strong language) you dismiss that as unjustified anger. Must be nice being you.

>Its more constructive than if I had just said man thats awful fuck off, I told you why I thought it was awful.

But basically that's just what you did. You gave "Pretending .." a '1' and told people stuff like that has no place on the c64. So no, it's not more constructive, it's exactly the same.

>Its also a lot easier to do demos these days where you have proper editors and cross assemblers.

So now tools come into play. Well, the first years of my active scene life, from 1987-1990, I coded my demos using the monitor of my cartridge, I only started playing around with Turbo Assembler when working on my first Focus demo. Now how is that for hardcore?

Oh wait, 1990, you were not even active then. Sorry, I forgot I was dealing with a newbie.

>With regards to the fades I said for a good demo they can make it better but I never required it nor gave a demo much better rating just because it did them.

And there you go with the fades again. What do fades have to do with concept demos?

>Initiated only means that you have to know why something is hard or nice. A guy that doesnt know about the side border for example would just look at it dumbfound and never even think why having X in the side border is cool or why 8 sprites on a line with open side-border and a logo is neat. Often (notice I say often) non programmers dont know and its not something you can ever show to a non scener which you can with art demos, as it is art and most people have an opinion about it.

I think most people on the current scene know how hard it is to do certain stuff. And I think some people here in this discussion probably could teach you a thing or two about hardcore coding. Just because they don't use it doesn't mean they don't know how to do it.

>If its something I delete right after watching it, its a 1 in my book.

So you just give 1's and 10's, is that it? No in-between? No grey area? What about trying it the other way around? Let's say you rate a demo first (maybe a 3, maybe a 4), then still delete it? Do you think you could live with something like that?

>The only reason I am even active again is because I found this site on google by accident, and then stumbled upon YKTR, Demus Interruptus and stuff like it. Not many of the other new productions I have watched inspired me.

How are you active? Telling people who have done a great deal in keeping this scene alive (and no, I'm not talking about myself here) that they have no place here (in *your* opinion ofcourse, lest we forget), because they don't play by your rules, is not being active - it's being arrogant.

>The prime reason I might do another demo is because the platform has so many limits that the code becomes a real challenge to write. If I could do something I know I considered impossible 10 years ago then I would be happy.
It might happen it might not.

So tell me again, why is it okay for you to try break those limits, and not for others to try breaking the limits of concept demos on the c64? Please please please, tell me. Because I sure as hell see no difference.

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