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2024-11-25 08:13

mankeli

Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146

Release id #247799 : Bowhunter

"I can honestly say that all these pixels has been carefully selected" - Why say this when it obviously looks like it's not the case?

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2024-11-27 21:12

Six

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 293

Quote: All cool, sorry, I must have misunderstood you.
In a way I thought you were saying that this: Bowhunter is somehow progressive and our way forward, while this: Bri1iiI! is somehow regressive and “drags everyone backwards”.

They're both cool things made for the C64 so I appreciate them both (though for different reasons).

My criticism is specifically for people who use every modern tool short of AI - and then complain about other people using AI. Those editors where you can paste in clip art or transparency the editor over a source image - using those is no different from using AI - though I wouldn't condemn either outside of a compo.

What's regressive is the idea that a production [outside of the context of compo rules] sucks if it's produced using tools newer than the ones the complainer is comfortable with. That kind of cyber-luddite-ism, taken to its logical conclusion, would have everyone restricted to KoalaPaint 1 - and even THEN the guy complaining about other people's work would probably have printed out art and taped it to his Koala pad to copy.

We're on the exact same page when it comes to compos and obeying their rules.

2024-11-27 21:37

Count Zero

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932

Yawn ... this is still a thread on the referenced release.

It doesnt feel like it anymore though... just a reminder.

2024-11-28 04:05

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057

Quote: They're both cool things made for the C64 so I appreciate them both (though for different reasons).

My criticism is specifically for people who use every modern tool short of AI - and then complain about other people using AI. Those editors where you can paste in clip art or transparency the editor over a source image - using those is no different from using AI - though I wouldn't condemn either outside of a compo.

What's regressive is the idea that a production [outside of the context of compo rules] sucks if it's produced using tools newer than the ones the complainer is comfortable with. That kind of cyber-luddite-ism, taken to its logical conclusion, would have everyone restricted to KoalaPaint 1 - and even THEN the guy complaining about other people's work would probably have printed out art and taped it to his Koala pad to copy.

We're on the exact same page when it comes to compos and obeying their rules.

Sorry six, but thre is so much wrong in what you claim about generative AI vs gfx tools, not to speak about apparent bad taste/inability to recognize production quality of the mentioned productions. :-\

2024-11-28 09:39

Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337

No, no, no! It is you who is wrong. People can produce anything from work of art to a piece of shit with use of traditional tools. With use of AI the range is exactly the same.

It was exactly the same with photography. People cried it will destroy painting. It didn't, and there are lots of photos that are works of art. And there is even such category on some parties. There are also AI compos on some parties already, but not very popular. YET!

World hates void. If there is something that can be done, it will be done, sooner rather than later. Let's take MC Carefully Selected Pixels as an example - when "original" image appeared and it became obvious i did a proper conversion at once. But i did not post, as i did not want to add to the drama that much. Wait few days, and it has been done by someone else...

Face it. If there are tools that can be used, people will used them no matter what. If we make a space where they can use it and share without being witch hunted, they will be posting right there, happy to share. If we keep the witch hunt, many of those works will end up in the compos. Of course, there still will be occasional occurrences of cheating, but much less

World is strange in a way, that the more one fights something, the more is there for one to fight. The stronger one squeezes to contain clay in one's fist, the more of it flows out between one's fingers.

2024-11-28 09:51

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

All that is cool, and I don't agree with what you say about LLM "AI" prompt-to-image catalogs of stolen goods, but let's not go there in this place.

What makes me sad is this: not only a lot of people fail to see that Bowhunter C64 pic has "dubious artistic value", but they also fail to see that the original is also of "dubious artistic value" (notice how careful I talk), I mean what's up with that weird bowstring?! This was the topic. What six started talking about (AI vs all-but-AI) is not the topic.

2024-11-28 10:12

Magnar

Registered: Aug 2009
Posts: 61

Guys, I respect and love every one of you. Being active in the C64 community is just amazing, and I know we all put a tremendous amount of our private time into creating productions and releases.

As part of the organizing crew for Mysdata, I was informed that we lacked entries in the graphics and music compos the day before the event started. To make these compos a bit more interesting for the audience, I decided to submit two entries from my old unreleased work-in-progress projects. On Thursday evening, I emailed a song and a picture to Phreedh.

Mysdata is an event where we don’t charge visitors for admittance, food, alcoholic drinks, snacks, etc. For the past three years, I’ve personally bought trophies for the 1st-place compo winners, either handing them out or shipping them, using my own money. What I’m trying to explain is that the Mysdata event and the compos mean a great deal to me. I want the visitors to have a fantastic time and a unique experience, and I also want to personally give back a small token of appreciation to those I respect so highly—those who support the event by spending their time attending and/or contributing entries to our compos. Considering this, my intention was only to submit compo fillers, not to end up winning the trophies myself—that would have been awkward.

The Bowhunter is a picture I worked on over a period of 3–4 years, pixeling and remaking it into my version in my time. My process includes first drawing in Photoshop, then converting it to the C64 format, and continuing the pixeling process in the PixCen editor. I just wanted to share that this is how The Bowhunter was made and leave it at that. I believe the last time people saw me working on the picture was during GERP 2022. I haven’t done much work on it since then. It was quite a while ago, and I also lost the original reference picture. So, when I submitted it, I no longer knew how close or far off it was from the original model.

In hindsight, I should not have submitted this picture. Even though I openly told the people I spoke with at the party that my picture used a model from a reference, I didn’t announce it to everyone. Also, my own ideology for creating things on the C64 is based on the idea that we all have different approaches, levels, and experiences, and that in the end, having fun is what matters most.

I understand, however, that there are those in the community who take compos at parties more seriously and want to compete on a high level where compo rules are strictly followed. In my case, I was caught up in the moment and got focused on having more entries in the compo would improve the audience experience rather than carefully considering whether I was breaking any of the compo rules. I’m human, after all—so that was my mistake.

I believe there’s a growing reasoning in this forum that remakes, partial use of models, AI-generated work, etc., are not generally acceptable in compos anymore. Because of this, I will discuss with the compo team how we can improve compos at future Mysdata events. For example, by including a clearer statement in the compo rules specifying that 1:1 copies, remakes, and partial use of AI or references will not be accepted.

Using references is a great way to learn. I think every artist does this as part of practicing and improving their craft. But I agree that we should avoid submitting these practice works, no matter how good they turn out, to party compos. Whether it’s a great cover of a song or a remake of a picture, I’ve learned this now the hard way.

Lastly, most artists are aware of their own level of skill and how they’ve grown over time. However, I hope the witch-hunt and burning of other people who have used references in the past will end. It seems this has become a part of these discussions. This negativity risks discouraging amazing sceners from supporting the C64 community—a demoscene that is already shrinking day by day. I truly hope everyone reflects on how this could harm artists more than it does any good.

/Magnar

2024-11-28 10:47

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

@Magnar:
<3

2024-11-28 11:23

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057

Quote: No, no, no! It is you who is wrong. People can produce anything from work of art to a piece of shit with use of traditional tools. With use of AI the range is exactly the same.

It was exactly the same with photography. People cried it will destroy painting. It didn't, and there are lots of photos that are works of art. And there is even such category on some parties. There are also AI compos on some parties already, but not very popular. YET!

World hates void. If there is something that can be done, it will be done, sooner rather than later. Let's take MC Carefully Selected Pixels as an example - when "original" image appeared and it became obvious i did a proper conversion at once. But i did not post, as i did not want to add to the drama that much. Wait few days, and it has been done by someone else...

Face it. If there are tools that can be used, people will used them no matter what. If we make a space where they can use it and share without being witch hunted, they will be posting right there, happy to share. If we keep the witch hunt, many of those works will end up in the compos. Of course, there still will be occasional occurrences of cheating, but much less

World is strange in a way, that the more one fights something, the more is there for one to fight. The stronger one squeezes to contain clay in one's fist, the more of it flows out between one's fingers.

I use AI daily. I can produce anything with it, and I still don't consider in an art.

In your hands with your process you produce beautiful productions with AI. High aesthetical quality. And that's all I can say now. I don't have enough academical background in art to debate wheter it is, or it is not an art. To me it looks beautiful pn c64, almost perfect, but if you can mass produce it will it still be art? Or china shop.

Nobody blames you for doing it, you are open about gour process.

Rest i will read later.

2024-11-28 12:09

Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680

Well said, Magnar. And especially noble re: Mysdata being free - I had no idea.

I’m not a huge fan of the recent lynch mobbing, as I said on Facebook, it’s been quite brutal. One scener in particular - who I won’t name but who seems to be like a “placebo scener” (always present, doesn’t really do anything) - was PM’ing me about some of this last year… he seemed hellbent on trying to get certain graphicians to quit the scene with his retort..

Attributions should be added to art. Compos shouldn’t allow copies/AI (unless the specify that they do).. etc etc.

But definitely it would make sense to create safe ways for practicing artists (and coders and musicians too tbh) where they won’t be shamed.

2024-11-28 12:39

Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337

Thank you Magnar for explaining what really happened. Respect that you are still willing to talk with us after so much hate on our part. Sorry Magnar, i should have follow my gut feeling that you could not mean any wrong. When we meet in Opole you made such a good impression on me. I should have reach out to you and ask. Sorry again.

Maybe instead of making more strict rules we need less strict ones? If it were not stated in the rules that "copies will be disqualified" the outrage would not be as great.

Or maybe two compos - one for original pixel art, and another one for anything goes compo. Hmm... but if there is a problem with finding enough entries for just one it is not such a great idea.

I know many will not agree with me, but i think there is too many scene events throughout a year. We are not able to produce a stream of quality productions to support them all. Unless we are all Trident, which is not the case ;)

There were 3 events going on that weekend. If all of them combined their entries there would be a great show, and no need for "compo filers".

I understand each of those events has it's own specificity. It is totally different to have online party like Transmission64, real meeting like Mysdata, or more intimate (or so I imagine) Vintage Computing Carinthia.

I do not have ready solution. It wouldn't feel right to say to anyone that his event should not be happening. But to me the problem seems real, there is not enough quality productions to support all parties. Apparently organizers of Mysdata see it too if they decided to add "compo filers".

I'm a Sofa Scener, I do not attend many parties, so I judge them mainly by what I can see on the stream, or later see on CSDb, but I also understand people who meet in person have totally different perspective.