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2023-12-22 18:03

Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 496

Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal

Dear fellow sceners,

This is an attempt to get more understanding among, and for, C64 demoscene pixel artists. It’s not written to limit anyone, but a prayer for more transparency.

Read the document here: ->Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal<-

We tried to give define and value different processes. Which is a result of discussion, where we saw mutual grounds and felt the need to write these down.
We will update the document periodically, when enough input has been gathered and sorted out.

We’d really love to hear your thoughts on the subjects in the document.
Please post them in this thread.

(Personally I will not always fully comply to these guidelines myself, but I will continue to be transparant about it. However, I do agree with the values communicated in this document.)

... 137 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2023-12-25 22:04

spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498

@Nim I feel you're reading to much into it. I agree with some of your points, but many of your arguments have imho nothing to do with the document linked by the OP and what the graphicians discussing this issue have in mind.

I also think "ethic" is the wrong term here, but maybe it is also not about "regulation", but about "values".

And I don't think anything of the bad behaviour you recite is automagically implied by having those values.

When I read the doc with an open mind and in good faith I see a lot of good values for creating art that I'd also teach any newbee in a similar way.

2023-12-25 22:05

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

@Nim
And your primary school aged daughter, if she pursues her interest, will very soon outgrow tracing paper copies.

2023-12-25 22:25

El Jefe

Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 81

Quoting spider-j

@Nim I feel you're reading to much into it. I agree with some of your points, but many of your arguments have imho nothing to do with the document linked by the OP and what the graphicians discussing this issue have in mind.

And furthermore I feel that Nim's comments are making a constructive discussion about this interesting and important topic impossible. One could be forgiven for thinking that this is intentional.

Shocker/sidDivers

2023-12-25 22:30

Peacemaker

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275

Quote: Quoting spider-j
@Nim I feel you're reading to much into it. I agree with some of your points, but many of your arguments have imho nothing to do with the document linked by the OP and what the graphicians discussing this issue have in mind.

And furthermore I feel that Nim's comments are making a constructive discussion about this interesting and important topic impossible. One could be forgiven for thinking that this is intentional.

Shocker/sidDivers

I am glad you are here beeing one of the most productive and constructive guy since 1992. Keep it on, we need people like you.

2023-12-25 22:30

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quoting Nim

Quoting 4gentE
What about 1:1 “tracing paper” style copies?

Funny you should ask, i asked my daughter about what she was up to as she was tracing a picture just the other day, she goes to a primary school with extra curriculums in arts.

Her answer was, "I want to color it."

So naturally i gave her a scolding for being a fucking rip-off...

The message isn't don't make a 1:1 copy, it's be open about it.

If your daughter had shown you the traced picture without any explanation of the process and your assumption was that she hadn't created the image from scratch, you would be a "destructive and antisocial, borderline narcissist"?

2023-12-25 22:35

Nim

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 27

The point is dont assume it was traced in order to lie about it when she shows it, jist because she didnt volunteer that information.

2023-12-25 22:36

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quote:

Also this is some real luddite stuff, if you don't like AI, great, if you do, great. Should you be transparent? Always.

the wording of the document might not be quite right, but this is a key point it's trying to get across. People only start to ask questions when something is (obviously) being hidden

Quote:

It's not really a debate.

Yet plenty of people are debating it...

2023-12-25 22:42

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quote: The point is dont assume it was traced in order to lie about it when she shows it, jist because she didnt volunteer that information.

But if you release a picture with no production notes, some will assume you did 100% of the work, others will take the opposite view. Why not just remove that ambiguity right away?

2023-12-25 23:34

LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 83

It is the argument of every oppressive police state: if you got nothing to hide, why shoud you be worried about surveillance?

2023-12-25 23:39

PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292

The document outlines ethical guidelines for original pixel art creation on the Commodore 64 demoscene. It emphasizes the importance of individual creativity, the use of personal references, and crediting sources when necessary. The guidelines encourage sharing work stages in competitions, respecting authors' rights, and being transparent about the use of AI or converted graphics. The proposal extends to party organizers and social media group moderators, promoting openness and information sharing within the C64 scene. The guidelines are supported by a group of graphic pixel artists who advocate for the creation of original ideas in their work.

Individual Expression: Acknowledge that the demoscene is a space for individual expression, and artists are free to create without feeling obligated to explain every nuance of their work.

Optional Disclosure: Emphasize that while sharing work stages and details is encouraged, it's not mandatory. Artists have the option to share insights if they wish, respecting the diversity of creative processes.

Fostering Creativity: Highlight the importance of fostering a creative environment where artists feel free to explore and experiment without the fear of judgment, and that the demoscene values the results of diverse creative approaches.

By acknowledging and respecting the freedom of artists to create without exhaustive explanation, the guidelines can support a vibrant and inclusive demoscene community. I think this is already in place today, as Burglar said about X gfx compos and other compos... Do we really need more than that?

In Norway's art scene (not pixels), there has been a discussion earlier that artists used video projectors to portray their images or Photoshop creations based on many sources and then worked with a lot... but to portray it onto a canvas and then make a big oil painting of it is not accepted... it is a bit like the way one had a grid in the past and set every tile by hand and then copied that over to the Commodore 64 paint program one was using, or as to do a fast convert draft and move on for 100 hours from there.

When I won the X gfx compo, I created an image of a different Donald Duck. At the party, I did several alterations. Grasstust of Hoaxers told me, "PAL, can you do something with those eyes?" and I pixeled new eyes while he and I sat there. Burglar told me it should be named "Duck It!" when I was to enter the file into the gfx compo, so I changed it to that much better title before the deadline. Should I credit this to the Walt Disney company? Really? In fact, Donald Duck was not my inspiration for the image; it was Arne And (https://www.xn--fl-mka.com/ics/serier/a-b/arneand/Images/1197.j..) because I loved that take on Donald. I wanted to make him trapped in the raster bars and in a kind of necklace or imprisoned in a way. He is still in full frontal attack and ready to party, but he is stuck there in a kind of despair, not being able to go full monty bananas on the clubbing scene or the dance floor.

In the end it come down to the fact that we are all children, still, we are grown up children and we do not want to be part of a scene where we have to document everything, that is the other side of life, the aduld side... lets be children and have fun. Lets be free... I will never ever enter a graphic compo staging fake workstages... that is just too lame.

You know, in the art world today, things are getting pretty wild. You can whip up an image using some AI magic, let it generate some cool stuff, or you can dive into live painting solutions where the canvas dances to your tune. But hey, how different is this from traditional painting, right?

I mean, think about it. If you're using a fancy 3D software with your own pipeline, tweaking nodes, and then splashing it onto the canvas of a Commodore 64, is that any less artistic than strokes in Painter or something?

The question is, where's the line? When does the magic created by the artist end, and the assistance from AI, shaders, or other tools begin? It's a bit like wandering into the unknown. What really counts as the artist's creation?

Some say it depends on how much manual effort you're putting in. If you're the puppet master pulling the strings in real-time, that's pretty artistic, right? Others argue that as long as you're steering the ship, making decisions, and shaping the creative direction, it's still very much your creation.

Intent matters too. If you're using these tools to enhance your unique vision rather than replace it, that's a big deal. And, of course, being honest about it. If you're upfront about the role of these tools and don't try to pull a fast one on your audience, it adds integrity to your process.

So, where do we draw the line? Well, that's a bit like asking where the wind begins, my friend. It might not be a clear-cut answer, but it keeps the creative world interesting, doesn't it?

A rebel of the pixel seas! So, this document, the holy grail of pixel art rules. Hold your horses, matey, because you've got a ship full of wild ideas, and you're not about to be tied down by pixel commandments.

The Uncharted Artist:
You're a free spirit, a pixel pirate sailing through the vast ocean of creativity. Signing a document? That's like asking a cat to walk the plank, it will just not happen.

Mind Full of Pixel Plots:
Your brain's a treasure chest of ideas, each pixel a potential adventure into something bigger and grand. Signing on the dotted line? Well, that's like putting your imagination in a tiny tiny box and always keep track of where inspiration came from. No can not do.

Apply, But Never Sign:
Sure, you might throw your hat in the ring, apply like a pixel renegade, but sign? That's for the rule-abiding sailors, not for a free spirits.

Divide and Pixel Conquer:
Signing? That's just creating a hierarchy of pixel artists. You're here to unite, not to divide. Pixel solidarity, my friend!

So, let them have their pixel treaties and signed declarations. You? You'll be out there, painting the waves of the pixelated unknown, a free spirit with a palette of the rebellion.

In the end, it's all about having fun with pixels and ideas. Can't we just keep it simple and enjoy the creative ride together?

PAL of Offence, Fairlight and FIG

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