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2004-08-05 07:54

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

LCP 2004 demos

What do you think ?

I'm sad, as there were no real coder's demos.

Afrika - we 've seen all these effects 10 years before

Triad,Flt - The design / theme of the demos were not good
enough to excuse for no spectacular codings.

Effluvium - the code was not good enough to excuse no gfx/design/whatever.

are there really no coders out there, that can come up with new stuff ?

... 131 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2004-08-07 06:54

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Wow. Sat, you sure got a way with words. Basically you accidentely stumble on this site, realize there's still a scene, find a few good old-fashioned demos you like and dismiss the rest as art that doesn't belong on the c64 because you don't think it can work. And when people react to that (in a quite civilised way I may add, I haven't seen one person here using strong language) you dismiss that as unjustified anger. Must be nice being you.

>Its more constructive than if I had just said man thats awful fuck off, I told you why I thought it was awful.

But basically that's just what you did. You gave "Pretending .." a '1' and told people stuff like that has no place on the c64. So no, it's not more constructive, it's exactly the same.

>Its also a lot easier to do demos these days where you have proper editors and cross assemblers.

So now tools come into play. Well, the first years of my active scene life, from 1987-1990, I coded my demos using the monitor of my cartridge, I only started playing around with Turbo Assembler when working on my first Focus demo. Now how is that for hardcore?

Oh wait, 1990, you were not even active then. Sorry, I forgot I was dealing with a newbie.

>With regards to the fades I said for a good demo they can make it better but I never required it nor gave a demo much better rating just because it did them.

And there you go with the fades again. What do fades have to do with concept demos?

>Initiated only means that you have to know why something is hard or nice. A guy that doesnt know about the side border for example would just look at it dumbfound and never even think why having X in the side border is cool or why 8 sprites on a line with open side-border and a logo is neat. Often (notice I say often) non programmers dont know and its not something you can ever show to a non scener which you can with art demos, as it is art and most people have an opinion about it.

I think most people on the current scene know how hard it is to do certain stuff. And I think some people here in this discussion probably could teach you a thing or two about hardcore coding. Just because they don't use it doesn't mean they don't know how to do it.

>If its something I delete right after watching it, its a 1 in my book.

So you just give 1's and 10's, is that it? No in-between? No grey area? What about trying it the other way around? Let's say you rate a demo first (maybe a 3, maybe a 4), then still delete it? Do you think you could live with something like that?

>The only reason I am even active again is because I found this site on google by accident, and then stumbled upon YKTR, Demus Interruptus and stuff like it. Not many of the other new productions I have watched inspired me.

How are you active? Telling people who have done a great deal in keeping this scene alive (and no, I'm not talking about myself here) that they have no place here (in *your* opinion ofcourse, lest we forget), because they don't play by your rules, is not being active - it's being arrogant.

>The prime reason I might do another demo is because the platform has so many limits that the code becomes a real challenge to write. If I could do something I know I considered impossible 10 years ago then I would be happy.
It might happen it might not.

So tell me again, why is it okay for you to try break those limits, and not for others to try breaking the limits of concept demos on the c64? Please please please, tell me. Because I sure as hell see no difference.

2004-08-07 08:49

VIC

Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 73

This discussion is useless... pretty much lige some movie discussion... Different demos has different qualities: some focus on code, others on the design & concept - so does the viewers... personally the demos I like best represent the best of both worlds.

That's also one of the main reasons why the voting system in here is "useless"... It should reflect the quality of multiple aspects like: code, music, graphics, concept(?), flow(?) -not only in a single value, but with points for each of these aspects (and perhaps some average of these to decide the placement among "Top Demos"...)

This has probably been up in many discussions, so sorry if i say something that has like been said before :)

2004-08-07 10:16

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

sat, you can keep saying things like "Im sorry for you if you cant handle an alternative opinion"
you are still missing the point, noone has a problem
with if someone likes a demo or not.
if alot of people react on what you write, perhaps
you should start to reconsider your opinions or the
way you express them.
what if i after watching the yktr demos started telling
cruzer that his demos which rely only on code and ignore
pretty linking, fade in + fade out, decent gfx etc. isnt
good enough, and that he should move to the spectrum,
and his demos are the worst things i've ever seen.

i would ofcourse not do that, because i am perfectly
able to appreciate different kinds of demos, and also
because i am not a total jerk (well..)

why is it that both on c64 and pc the people
who like technical demos attack the 'artsy' demos and
their producers, telling them that what they do is
not what its all about, and that they should leave for
some other scene, while the 'artsy' people never do the
same to the technical ones

and yes, this discussion is useless, because like all
other conservative oldtimers sat will be gone in a few
weeks time. until then we just have to live with him
being 'active' on the c64 scene.

2004-08-07 11:44

Sat
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 12

Yeah this gotten to be quite a pointless discussion,
I will do one last comment.

TDJ:

> Wow. Sat, you sure got a way with words. Basically you
> accidentely stumble on this site, realize > there's still
> a scene, find a few good old-fashioned demos you like and
> dismiss the rest as art that > doesn't belong on the c64
> because you don't think it can work. And when people react
> to that (in a > quite civilised way I may add, I haven't
> seen one person here using strong language) you dismiss
> that as unjustified anger. Must be nice being you.

I explained why I think as I do quite civilized too. A few
disagree as expected unfortunately some take it very
personal, your free to rate mine with 1 if you dislike them,
some will I know.

> So now tools come into play. Well, the first years of my
> active scene life, from 1987-1990, I coded my demos using
> the monitor of my cartridge, I only started playing around
> with Turbo Assembler when working on my first Focus demo.
> Now how is that for hardcore?
> Oh wait, 1990, you were not even active then. Sorry, I
> forgot I was dealing with a newbie.

Pointless personal attack, and yes I was active back then.
This discussion never was about being hard core or not, more about what people like to see in demos. I never once said I was hard core either.

> I think most people on the current scene know how hard it
> is to do certain stuff. And I think some people here in
> this discussion probably could teach you a thing or two
> about hardcore coding. Just because they don't use it
> doesn't mean they don't know how to do it.

They probably do, I learned quite a bit since I started to
mess around again, so much has been discovered the last 10
years; I would actually be disappointed if they couldnt.
My main point being that I dont want to use time on
watching demo types that I dont like.

> So you just give 1's and 10's, is that it? No in-between?
> No grey area? What about trying it the other way around?
> Let's say you rate a demo first (maybe a 3, maybe a 4),
> then still delete it? Do you think you could live with
> something like that?

No I roughly use my demo rating system:

75% for code / effect, 20% for music / graphics,
5% for design / fades, 0% for concept / story.

Of cause if something impresses/surprises me in one way or
another I might give more/less for each category, nothing is
fixed in stone.

> How are you active? Telling people who have done a great
> deal in keeping this scene alive (and no, I'm not talking
> about myself here) that they have no place here (in *your*
> opinion ofcourse, lest we forget), because they don't play
> by your rules, is not being active - it's being arrogant.

For me being active just mean that you produce / work on
stuff for the C64, that might or might not be released.
A month ago I was inactive. Maybe the scenes definition of
active has changed, mine hasnt.

> So tell me again, why is it okay for you to try break
> those limits, and not for others to try breaking the
> limits of concept demos on the c64? Please please please,
> tell me. Because I sure as hell see no difference.

I never said it isn't ok, I only said please dont force
me to watch such stuff.

VIC:
I agree more than one score would be better for demos.

Hollowman:

> if alot of people react on what you write, perhaps you
> should start to reconsider your opinions or the
> way you express them

Well not many did and I already said I might have been a bit
rough at the start.

> what if i after watching the yktr demos started telling
> cruzer that his demos which rely only on code and ignore
> pretty linking, fade in + fade out, decent gfx etc. isnt
> good enough, and that he should move to the spectrum, and
> his demos are the worst things i've ever seen.

If thats how you felt, I would have no problem with that.
I would probably just post, a counter post saying I liked it
just to let him know.

> i would ofcourse not do that, because i am perfectly able
> to appreciate different kinds of demos, and alsobecause i
> am not a total jerk (well..)

Well C64 demos for me is about one thing, its my opinion
and I dont see how I necessarily become a jerk just because
I didnt like the one demo of yours Ive seen so far.
I encourage you to rate demos like you think they deserve.

> and yes, this discussion is useless, because like all
> other conservative oldtimers sat will be gone in a few
> weeks time. until then we just have to live with him
> being 'active' on the c64 scene.

Well its more useless because its opinions, its just as
discussing movies,bookes, etc some like certain things
others hate it and would never waste time on it. I am not
conservative just because I like the old demo style.
Nostalgic would be a better word and yes you might be right
maybe Im gone in a few weeks who cares this thread has
shown that people of both opinions and various middle roads
exist.

So there's a reason to produce both types.

2004-08-07 13:08

Spectator
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 35

Pushing the boundries of the c64 IS art.

2004-08-07 13:40

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

>Well C64 demos for me is about one thing, its my opinion
>and I dont see how I necessarily become a jerk just because
>I didnt like the one demo of yours Ive seen so far.

sat, how many times do i have to repeat myself, you
can have any opinion about my demo(s), like it,
dislike it. i dont care.
but you said that those who do art should move to
pc instead, and you also said that demos like
pretending to see the light should disappear.

you can continue acting as if the problem is that
i am pissed off because you dont like my demo,
surely that easens your mind
or you could try to realize what it is exactly
that you have said here, how you have acted.
perhaps a clever guy like you could then figure
out why i used the word jerk

but ofcourse, looking at what you said and done
could destroy your idea of yourself, as the humble,
intelligent person who discuss things in a civlized manner

2004-08-07 15:04

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942

Quote: Sat, Oswald...or anyone who wants to meddle in this discussion - you might want to consider phrasing. Saying "ok, Borderline wsn't my kind of demo but congrats on #2" is a lot nicer than "wtf art suxxor - leave the scene".

It's also very fun to read about the Swedish 'arty-scene'. Apparently, since I'm a Swedish demo-scener, what I do is artsy as opposed to technical, if I understand some of the blaha in this thread right. I guess it's time to give up on digis, x-fli, rotating objects and stretchers then, or move to Germany (where everything released of course is technical and not arty).

Also, even though I don't want to use the "I'm in so many top 10 productions on CSDB"-argument - try to balance all of the pretty stuff that you have to say (whoever you are) with doing some pretty stuff. If you want to preach about arty demos - well, release a few. Same goes if you want to save us with border sprites and kefrens bars - get a couple of releases or I won't take you that seriously. Sorry.

(Psst Hein, I'll show you how to do a sideborder-scroll)

Congrats to Dandruf for ripping a 10 year old tune for the Afrika demo to match the 10 year old effects.

Hehe... a musician showing me how to do a sideborder scroll.. hmmmm.. I was about to ask GRG, or Jeff.
Nono, my life will become too complicated, eventually I will want to make a complete demo by myself.

2004-08-07 15:36

Metal Maniac

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 12

I don't know why Im writing this, but it might happen that someone here reads the words from the world party rulers #1, that is your friends in Dual Crew.

If we can choose between a demo and no demo at all we choose a demo.

But, as always remember the Dual Crew slogan:
- There are ALWAYS 2 points of view.

Take care guys, and be prepared for our next demo, probably lame in many eyes, but we for sure had fun making it (as usual).

2004-08-07 15:52

ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408

Hein Design:
> Nono, my life will become too complicated, eventually I will want to make a complete demo by myself.

.. and you _really_ don't want to go that route - next thing you know Oswald will be pointing out that your X isn't good enough to excuse no Y/Z/W ;-) ;-)

did i mention i wrote the music player and editor the week before the compo..

btw, are any of the onslaughters based on the west coast of Aus?

2004-08-07 15:53

Sat
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 12

Ok one more comment.

I know what I said and I stand by it.

1. I would rather have a scene without these productions than one with.
2. I find it sad that concept demos and ordinary demos are compared (its not something that can be compared or judged by the same rules).

You disagree and might consider me a jerk because of it. Lets leave it at that and get along.

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