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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
scene activity
more and more i get the feeling that the my world (the scene) has become smaller and smaller. after a chat with the overkiller it was clear to me that the dutch scene isn't alive anymore and the italian scene either.
but what about the polish scene, the slovak scene and the german scene? how did the c64 survive through all the modern thinkings and technology?
sure as hell i bet the german scene survived because the pc-sceners adopted the c64 on their parties like mekka+symposium.....
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
@Cadaver: You must admit that your tutorials are on a very high level that appears to be beyond the comprehension of the average I-did-a-small-program-in-basic-10-years-ago-now-please-tell-me-how-to-do-a-game- in-assembler dude.
Then again, there are many tutorials available that are about the very first steps in Asm (about things like "what means LDA?"). I believe that many people never get farther than that stage because of:
- Lack of motivation (It takes a long time until you have created something "impressive" that reinforces you to carry on)
- Lack of ability (... not lack of skill, which could be improved. People have their limits ;) - Not everyone is a genius)
- Lack of tutorials about the moderately advanced levels... Although there are some of them available, and then it comes back to lack of motivation and ability. You are right, it is impossible to present everything in the "ready-to-serve" way - real asm porgramming/coding always involves some pioneering work. If people don't like to do that work, pues nada.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
To me, retard scene describes the persons putting out garbage who are not willing to improve, or worse: who can do much better but think that basic demos and ugly pictures are funny and should be entered in competitions. I see no use for people like that in any scene to be honest.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
MorGor: Yes, I'm aware that they're highlevel and not useful but to a very small niche. I'm not bitter or anything, I just have greater understanding now :) Most cynicism comes anyway not from the tutorials but from the realization that people would want extensive SID instrument libraries (or to have the means to rip them from any PSID-file) instead of learning to do their own :)
Well, I guess part of the problem is, that once someone has got down the basics of ASM and handling the chips, there are actually infinite possibilities where to go next, but tutorials can only present a view limited by their author..
For example, what would the next advanced step be from Puterman's document? I guess it'd have to be describing the effects and optimization in even more detail. But that would either have to be limited to a very few effects or be an unbelievable amount of work. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
> Most cynicism comes anyway not from the tutorials but
> from the realization that people would want extensive SID
> instrument libraries (or to have the means to rip them
> from any PSID-file) instead of learning to do their own
Amount of GT tunes with snare taken from "Metal Warrior" example IS frightening, but don't forget that they were mostly done by beginners. Show me a musician who did not rip sounds when composing his first tune(s).
Just wait for those people to progress and you might be pleasantly surprised.
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
cadaver: the next step would be... unnecessary. All the info you need is already there (and then there's a shitload of other articles that'll teach you everything from scrollers to SHIFLI). The point is that you don't need tutorials: you have to do a lot of work on your own. However, if you don't want to learn, that's a problem, and no tutorial will ever solve that problem.
_You_ already know that, but there are others who might not be as enlightened.
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
Cadaver: "Well, I guess part of the problem is, that once someone has got down the basics of ASM and handling the chips, there are actually infinite possibilities where to go next, but tutorials can only present a view limited by their author.."
Agreed. For my own part, I could describe in great detail how I solved very specific and rather tricky problems for my game project, but that would probably not be useful for anybody because nobody else would encounter those problems (unless somebody would try to create a clone of the game -- which will never happen, I suppose) ;-)
For example, I guess nobody needs a routine that moves cursor-sized objects from and to random locations up to 16 cursors in x and y directions, taking into account that the object must do that in a predetermined number of game turns (1-6), depending on the euclidian distance? Even if so, I am sure there are other and more accurate sulutions than mine, so why write a tutorial on that?
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Quote: > Most cynicism comes anyway not from the tutorials but
> from the realization that people would want extensive SID
> instrument libraries (or to have the means to rip them
> from any PSID-file) instead of learning to do their own
Amount of GT tunes with snare taken from "Metal Warrior" example IS frightening, but don't forget that they were mostly done by beginners. Show me a musician who did not rip sounds when composing his first tune(s).
Just wait for those people to progress and you might be pleasantly surprised.
We'll see that GT will become the Compute Gazette Sidplayer of the "emulamer" age :)
As for my personal comfort, I only require to know that Reyn Ouwehand's LN3 style is possible to mimic with the editor given skill.
But still I don't think it should ever be the tool author's assumed responsibility (when speaking of a C64 util) to provide any sound libraries.
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
> We'll see that GT will become the Compute Gazette
> Sidplayer of the "emulamer" age :)
I don't think so. You can compose shit using any imaginable editor, and it happens often. Even with simple instruments (I have to agree that a majority people using GT does not pay enough attention to soundprogramming) nice results lie within your grasp, provided you are talented - Maktone is a good example.
I won't comment on that e word :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Well, it was used humorously, considering I do 100% development and 99% testing on you guess what :) |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
You Emulamer you!
Back to the tutorial-theme.
Well, before i found Puterman's Tutorial which i think is very good and helpfull i really found it hard to do anything in assembler (well, and it still is as i just made my first steps, but hopefully i'll manage to improve) because most beginners tutorials explain what lda, sta, beq, bmi etc. stands for and gives you examples on how to do little matc with adc etc..
But that's where most tutorials stop. What i always missed was some sort of explenation or example on how to use them. An example of how to read the joystick or at least give me some short infos about it, an example of how to do graphics (or the basics of doing so) and so on.
There's something missing betweedn the very basic stuff and the professional descriptions of professional effects.
There are for sure very good reasons to learn everything by yourself, but i think (and look back at school, it was the same there) it is better to give you something to play around with, some solid basis like basics of displaying graphics, playing sound etc. where you can later build on and probably improve.
You also have to keep in mind that today somebody would probably think twice before starting to learn to code for the all time greatest computer if he has to find everything out by himself by either trial-and-error or trying to understand other peoples code. ( The second one would probably result in more copy-and-paste routines but giving people some basic stuff to start with).
Or maybe the problem i had was that i didn't find the right stuff as it might be all there but scattered on the whole homepages, papermags and diskmags.
Maybe some sort of place where those tutorials, informations about the different behaviors of the different chips and stuff about different effects + sources would be gathered would be a very VERY good idea.
I guess there are still people around who would like to do something for their beloved machine (and i am not talking about music or graphics here (what isn't bad either)) but find it terrible hard to start and instead of releasing basic-shit they release nothing.
(one among the reasons why there weren't any real church-releases during the last 2 years by me but some msx and gfx)
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