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2004-08-05 07:54

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086

LCP 2004 demos

What do you think ?

I'm sad, as there were no real coder's demos.

Afrika - we 've seen all these effects 10 years before

Triad,Flt - The design / theme of the demos were not good
enough to excuse for no spectacular codings.

Effluvium - the code was not good enough to excuse no gfx/design/whatever.

are there really no coders out there, that can come up with new stuff ?

... 131 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2004-08-07 19:35

Dane
Account closed

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421

Quote: Hehe... a musician showing me how to do a sideborder scroll.. hmmmm.. I was about to ask GRG, or Jeff.
Nono, my life will become too complicated, eventually I will want to make a complete demo by myself.

Yes, that's precisely what happens. And seeing you know how to tweak both pixels and frequencies by now you should come join my one-man-army club. :)

2004-08-08 00:36

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Sat, my personal attack had a point in fact. Throughout this thread you've been putting down today's sceners on several occasions, with the all-too-known attitude of an ex-scener returning and somehow not being able to coop with evolution. I just wanted to let you feel how it is to be on the receiving end of such statements. So no, I don't consider you a newbie, but I sure as hell don't consider you an authority either. Then again, after this thread I doubt anybody does that, save you yourself maybe.

2004-08-08 03:29

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942

Quote: Yes, that's precisely what happens. And seeing you know how to tweak both pixels and frequencies by now you should come join my one-man-army club. :)

Yes, well, Im terribly expensive.

2004-08-08 06:45

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Quote: Yes, well, Im terribly expensive.

He is you know. Why do you think Focus went bankrupt all those years ago? I'm still paying off those debts ..

2004-08-08 15:07

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

Hey.

Before anything, I'd like to state that I'm very happy to read this thread, since so many posts show - in my opinion - real demoscene spirit. If anything, I am proud to be a part of it. Thumbs up, guys!

Now, this response to Sat is pro forma, since he seems to have posted his last comment, but I was occupied with other things to make my stand in time. Oh well.

>However I said I was tired of ART demos. A ART demo being >a demo that concentrate on 'silly' fade in-out routines >or a story, and never really show anything that is >impressively coded or a nice effect and where 50% of the >demo is spend doing the fades/story (these kind of demos >is more fun on the PC IMHO).

This is your opinion on the matter, and I'm completely cool with it. Another look on things is great, it's another angle, something which drives me to rethink my own stance and adapt if such a thing is required and wanted. In fact, orthogonal thinking is often a source of innovation. Things like trackmos, concept demos, story-driven demos etc. all came from people who said, "Let's throw it all around and do it like *this*".

Who doesn't remember this one:

"In this demo, you don't press space. We also might highly entertain you on various philosophical, political and/or technical levels."-King Fisher (quote may be partly fictional)

>So clearly you misunderstood what I was talking about.

Clearly I didn't since I seem to be entirely cool with the entire preceding paragraph. Always have been.

No, what I disapprove of (and consequently argue about), is this:

>It's also the reason why I wont touch the PC 'scene' as >its just a matter of who got the best artists, and to me >99.5% of those demoes are boring. Gone are the days where >the coder really mattered (except for a couple of 64k >introes).

<sarcasm> So basically, in the PC scene, the coder doesn't matter these days? In other words, the current day demos in the PC scene consist of loose music pieces and pictures on which we have to click separately to see them?

...no. I guess some of them also have a .txt file explaining the concept and/or the story.

You know, as an absolute abstract form of demomaking, this wouldn't be such a bad idea for a demo, or for demo art, even. Except that it is not a revolutionary new idea, since all PC demos already are this way, obviously. </sarcasm>

I think the coder still matters. Perhaps PC demo making is a lot more flexible, what with the amount of available software (all developed by graphicians, of course), but in the end, someone has to do the timing and create a show worth watching. Someone has to debug, someone has to optimize. No, not the compiler.

I think the demoscene is a self-regulating unit. Those five factors I mentioned in previous posts are all vital, and demomakers will constantly push themselves to the limit in each of these five factors because there is an internal competition. Just like here. We all want to be the best in what we do, which creates a drive to go on and reach the next level.

It's important to understand that this competition, and ultimately evolution is platform *independent*. The platform only matters as restricting factor: a c64 is a wholly different beast than an Amiga, or a PC setup. Which you choose, depends on yourself and your background.

Also, the five factors evolve independently from eachother, and sometimes, the focus lies more on, say, concept than code. It just happens, but after a while, the tables may turn, or there is no particular preference. Some will like the current situation, others won't, others don't mind.

This is all okay, but it is not okay when someone then says that people who like 'concepts' (which lead to 'art demos') should change platforms because they're not really wanted or needed.

That's separatism, something I *really* don't like. And you said this not once, but thrice (in the posts before my previous one):

1(tbh I think this demo-art thing was something that was >invented for PC.
2IMHO if you want Art please go create it with all the >other PC .... s
3Thats why I say if you want looks go for a PC demo.

Now, I didn't feel like responding on those first two comments, but 3 caused me to arch my eyebrows. "'Looks'", I thought, "that could be 'art', or 'graphics and maybe music'. That's what I do. Now why should I go to the PC for that?"

Moving on:

>Its simple as a coder I like to see incredible code >the rest is just eye candy which give it the last 5%, but >thats just because I enjoy code more than the story.

Oh, so my input is just eye candy? Which gives it the last 5%? Ideas, images, music are only a negligeable, shallow, superficial fragment of a demo? For the record, this percentage was 'kindly' modified into a 'much more realistic' 25% later on. Thank you, we feel much more appreciated now.

And last, but definitely not least:

>For a coder adding the 'fadein' / 'fadeout' stuff also >tend to be laberous boring stuff which in most cases >doesnt require talent but just time (which is often what >people lack these days).. Yeah I agree it looks nice when >its done but I just dont value it as high as the >superficial rest does ;)

Just to make sure that we are talking about the same thing, I shall use the same definition of 'superficial' as you: "Concerned with or comprehending only what is apparent or obvious; shallow". Okay.

I like concepts. I like the flow of a demo. I love demos which just keep pushing the envelope, which are full of emotion, which develop their story with superb imagery, tightly synced to a cool tune. I value that really high because of my background.

Hence, by your viewpoint, I am one of the 'superficial rest'. I am shallow and obvious. I don't really matter in the c64 scene, I should go to the 'boring PC scene' instead.

That glorious insight, coupled with my pride and love for my platform, caused me to respond, suspecting that other graphicians and musicians might feel the same way. Of course, they are much wiser than me and don't respond at all - unfortunately, I said A, so here's side B.

One last thing: perhaps you meant that sceners are superficial in general?

>You also fail to take into account that 95% of the people >watching a demo evaluate it on looks instead of code. >Which means easy as hell to do part A with nice graphics >will get higher rating than a hard as hell part B
>(Superficial as defined in the dictionary: Concerned with >or comprehending only what is apparent or obvious; >shallow.). Its how life works I know, but that doesnt >mean I have to agree.

This is true, but don't you think that it's a bit harsh to ask everyone to be an expert on everything? Must a PC scener know all the intricacies of a c64, sid music or graphics modes? The other way around, must we know all the intricacies of the Pentium architecture, sound and video cards or the DirectX libraries? Must we all know exactly how recursive ray-tracing, vector engines, quadtree partitioning and fractal imaging works? Is this the only way to appreciate a demo?

Are you shallow otherwise?

I don't know about this. The sceners I meet at a party are all, no exception so far, amazing people with great expertise in their field. You talk, you drink, you exchange ideas, you have a blast. Sometimes, their knowledge goes way above your head because you aren't as specialised in their platform.

Now, do these people suddenly become shallow when looking at demos from other platforms? Should they be kept from watching the demo? Should they be kept from voting to show their appreciation?

Let me put it differently: let's say I walk up to the table of a person coding a part for a demo. This person is very likely to know much, much more about coding than me. I talk to her a bit, then ask what she's doing. She shows me what she's got so far, then asks in return: "So, how do you like it?"

Should I respond: "Wow! Cool object, reflections rock, the texture makes it really dark, you've even got shadows - I love it!"

or should I answer: "I'm sorry, I would like to comment, but my knowledge about the *insert non-c64 platform here* is superficial to the point that I can't give an accurate statement about your part."

or, more explicitly: "I don't know whether this is supposed to be impressive code or not, so I have no idea."

Choose wisely, Guybrush.

2004-08-08 16:07

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942

Quote: He is you know. Why do you think Focus went bankrupt all those years ago? I'm still paying off those debts ..

Yes, that 1 picture I did for Focus, costed them a fortune..

I feel like Kluivert; don't have to play, still get paid. That's the spirit.

2004-08-08 18:33

JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014

Let me get constructive:

PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS

And yes, I'm from Sweden therefore this is Art. :D

Best regards /Jack 'Penis' Asser - the well hung stud.

2004-08-08 19:15

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

Point taken, Jackasser. Though not not all pens are pens, the sheer artistry of it all dazzles me. Is there no limit to Swedish creativity? ;)

2004-08-08 19:20

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942

Quote: Let me get constructive:

PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS

And yes, I'm from Sweden therefore this is Art. :D

Best regards /Jack 'Penis' Asser - the well hung stud.

Wow, check this out, huh, huh, he said penis, huh, huh.

2004-08-08 19:32

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Quote: Wow, check this out, huh, huh, he said penis, huh, huh.

And still he made more sense than Sat.

By the way _V_: excellent post, once again.