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2013-12-30 09:27

Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504

boobsploitation

So i never understood the fuzz about choosing boobs as a motif. Nude bodies have always been part of art. Also boobs are a thankful motif, as they keep one motivated to continue and finish a picture. Actually i adore and worship the female body. For me, nothing does feel wrong about that. But i somehow feel like there's a lot of mental masturbation going on. So feel free to bring your arguments against boobs forward. Maybe some nice drama will develop from that!
And yes, of course i'll continue drawing boobs, don't bother :-)

... 251 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2014-01-05 22:21

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Quote:

Was talking about SID musicians. Not about girls using some accessible PC (or something) based tools.

Like Goat Tracker? :) Those artists I linked are not making tunes on PCs (aside from mastering perhaps). Having played around with Little Sound DJ myself, I didnt find it especially accessible.

Just to add a general comment, I see were now on to but some women have double standards and but some men feel pressure to live up to stereotypes as well. Absolutely. And it would be better if those things didnt exist, just as it would be better if sexism towards women didnt exist. Which is why it's not about "political correctness", it's a question of why people want to support and defend those kind of attitudes. Especially since women suffer far, far worse than men*

*except one :)

Quote:

Images that use male sexual urges to gain a response, whether they be of women, men, or sheep wearing lipstick, are exploitive of MEN, not the subjects of the imagery.

2014-01-05 23:16

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3047

Quoting deev

Like Goat Tracker? :)

...

Quoting deev

it's a question of why people want to support and defend those kind of attitudes

Question is that if I like artistic images having themes featuring woman body, do I support those kind of attitudes according to you, or not?

If not, then this debate is already solved. "stretched legs" pic, you have used as example... I don't like it. I don't want it. Nor I appreciate naive attempts like Bitbreaker's one. Which doesn't mean that I dislike him for that. I'm sure his intentions were quite different from the "stetched legs". Even when his reasoning and style in the starting post of this topic was also bit naive/tasteless.

I don't think just *some* women have double standards. Humanity, in general, has them.

We shouldn't be tolerant towards any kind of stupidity and oppression, but we should avoid overacting and pretense at the same time. I mean, using of sentences like "Women suffer far worse than men." in topics about c64 graphics is totally out of place.

2014-01-06 00:11

Six

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289

Quoting Deev

Which is why it's not about "political correctness", it's a question of why people want to support and defend those kind of attitudes. Especially since women suffer far, far worse than men*
*except one :)

How cute.

This comes, of course, from the guy who can't seem to understand that his position requires the assumption that there is something degrading or shameful about women behaving in a sexually aggressive manner - as the suggestion that they are being harmed by being portrayed that way requires.

2014-01-06 08:30

Conrad

Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 847

Quote:

Was talking about SID musicians. Not about girls using some accessible PC (or something) based tools.

Don't believe it all you like, but my sister made a tune in Electrosound many years ago. I did help out here and there though. Plus she knew how to use a sprite editor and did some small graphics. This obviously doesn't contribute to this somewhat controversial debate, but it is some proof that females can be productive on any computer.

2014-01-06 08:48

Dane
Account closed

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421

Just as guilty as most other gfx artists on here of sexualizing women in some of my pics. Mea culpa. But Deev is 100% correct, and I think it's immature to not take the discussion seriously. The gfx discussed is all in my opinion a good example of Male Gaze, a term first used in film theory.

"The Male Gaze is a term from Gaze theory that describes the tendency of works to assume a (straight) male viewpoint even when they do not have a specific narrative Point of View, and in particular the tendency of works to present female characters as subjects of implicitly male visual appreciation.

One of the most obvious results of Male Gaze is the way a (usually male) director/cameraman's interest in women informs his shots, leading to a focus on breasts, legs, asses and other jiggly bits even when the film isn't necessarily supposed to be a T&A-fest. For example, a sex scene between a man and a woman may show more of her body than it does of his, or focus more on her reactions than his. Alternatively, it could appear in shows that aren't overtly sexual - for example, scenes of bikini-clad female characters talking that emphasize their bodies rather than showing just their heads.

A subtle psychological effect of this is that, in visual media, audiences are primed to sympathise with, or at least respect, characters if the first prominent shot of them concentrates on their face. If it shows another body part the audience is more likely to see the character as a threat, or an object of desire. It isn't difficult to override this later, but the audience will usually experience it at least subconsciously as a twist.

The term also applies in other mediums, such as video games and comic books. During the Dark Age, comic books were often perfect examples of the male gaze, with scenes being framed to show off a female character's "assets" over everything else. The trend continues at a lower level today."

2014-01-06 09:37

algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705

Yes, seems the media are using this all the time. I guess they need something to attract peoples attention (those that adore and love the female form :-)

2014-01-06 09:55

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3047

Quote: Just as guilty as most other gfx artists on here of sexualizing women in some of my pics. Mea culpa. But Deev is 100% correct, and I think it's immature to not take the discussion seriously. The gfx discussed is all in my opinion a good example of Male Gaze, a term first used in film theory.

"The Male Gaze is a term from Gaze theory that describes the tendency of works to assume a (straight) male viewpoint even when they do not have a specific narrative Point of View, and in particular the tendency of works to present female characters as subjects of implicitly male visual appreciation.

One of the most obvious results of Male Gaze is the way a (usually male) director/cameraman's interest in women informs his shots, leading to a focus on breasts, legs, asses and other jiggly bits even when the film isn't necessarily supposed to be a T&A-fest. For example, a sex scene between a man and a woman may show more of her body than it does of his, or focus more on her reactions than his. Alternatively, it could appear in shows that aren't overtly sexual - for example, scenes of bikini-clad female characters talking that emphasize their bodies rather than showing just their heads.

A subtle psychological effect of this is that, in visual media, audiences are primed to sympathise with, or at least respect, characters if the first prominent shot of them concentrates on their face. If it shows another body part the audience is more likely to see the character as a threat, or an object of desire. It isn't difficult to override this later, but the audience will usually experience it at least subconsciously as a twist.

The term also applies in other mediums, such as video games and comic books. During the Dark Age, comic books were often perfect examples of the male gaze, with scenes being framed to show off a female character's "assets" over everything else. The trend continues at a lower level today."

No Deev is not 100% correct. Nor Mermaid. You are the first one who brings solid arguments to the debate.

2014-01-06 19:28

Six

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289

I'm puzzled by the comparison of artwork depicting women and the assault/harassment of actual women. These are two completely different things. If we were talking about artwork depicting women being stalked, violated, or in any other way harmed, I could understand the problem with it.

Pretty surprised, too, to read about some of the things Mermaid has encountered in the scene. I would have figured of all people, that sceners wouldn't be putting up with that sort of behavior. I always saw the demo scene as a place where one was judged purely on their contribution, not their gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or anything else.

Deev - while I don't agree with your opinion on whether or not these artworks harm women, I can see that they are (contrary to my original impression) sincere, so with an apology, I respectfully retract my suggestion that you're putting on for attention.

Mostly, I take issue with the idea that sexuality is degrading or harmful in some way, regardless of the gender of the people being portrayed in works of that sort.

I would also have to dispute that women are being exploited by such works - by definition they are constructed to get a reaction from men. You might argue that these works motivate bad behavior towards women, but a work, and how any given person reacts to that work are two different things.

Does this content keep women away from the scene? From reading this thread, I'd have to say if anything keeps women away from the scene, it's the sort of harassment that Mermaid has experienced. If there's something we need to address and eliminate from our community, I think that behavior should be at the top of the list.

2014-01-06 19:39

Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 504

Just some additions after reading through 55 more posts, haha:
My pics are never copies, they are all handmade.

I have a busy family life that does not allow much time to use for scene productions at home. Thus i also have not much drive to find opinions on any possible controversy, for the sake of having one. There's no need for me to be mr. super correct and play that out in the next hipster bar, as I'm not in that bar anyway.

That and the fact that i use my nowadays skills to achieve what i couldn't as a teenager, might make me appear naive, i'm fine with that, i see it as a compliment.

Also i want to point out that i am pretty happy that ladies and men are so different, be it in their anatomy or their preferences. If you want to know what keeps most of the women away from scene: They say: Keep me away from that goddamn unfucked (it is not my words, but women's words) nerds. I asked quite some ladies aboout what they think about the scene, and they all went just went "oh noes /o\" Sexism? Prejudices? In fact i don't really care as there is more important stuff to care about anyway.

Still i haven't found the link on what drives male feminists. To me it keeps being a paradoxon, it feels like i should feel bad or ashamed of my deeds while could do no harm to any woman as they are just too adorable. So how can that happen? I mean, women shall vote, have same rights, same salary, no doubt, but how some 16 color boobs shall bring opression over women is a riddle to me. Even if i' proclaim hatred over all women, the circle of people i reach on this channel is so small, that i'd have no success anyway.

2014-01-06 20:41

TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2218

The whole discussion is rather a theoretical one, since I guess this one percent females in scene takes more to be scared off than some blocky boobs or vagagas no matter in which c64 resolution or gfx mode anyway. In the end, some will always shout out "Quote durch Titte!" (German for "Votes for Boobies!") at live competetition. Some actually mean it, others only pretend or are ironic :)

I don't think that you or algo or me or others will care a lot about the feelings of so-called women's rights activist no matter of what sex. However, even I see a difference between those poorly converted slideshows from the mid/late 80s and true art on the one side but also high def pr0n of today on the other side.

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