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Ghostrider
Administrator
Posts: 45 |
Unreleased cartridge games to see the light of day?
At the time when software labels started releasing games on cartridge again (around 1990), there were some games that were scheduled for release on cartridge but unfortunately never saw the light of day - only disk/tape versions were released. One of the more well-known of these was Last Ninja 3.
My thought was, with some knowledge of emulator cartridge formats (like .crt) and the right cracking/hacking skills, it should be possible to create a .crt file with a game like Last Ninja 3. Of course you would need to replace the disk/tape-loader by code to read from the cartridge. This way, in emulators, we could play the cartridge versions in something resembling the way they were meant to be. With high-speed loading even at normal C64-accurate cpu-speed.
And you could take it even further than that - releasing other multi-load games on "cartridge" as .crt files. As far as I remember, when the new cartridge wave hit us, Ocean did release a few older games on cartridge that were not originally intended for cartridge.
Does anybody know if any disk-to-crt conversions like that have ever been done? Or have any idea how much memory-restructuring of a game that would take?
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
For a good cracker, putting a game on cart (or more - making it a .crt image) would be almost as easy as installing a new loadersystem. The limit is ofcourse that you need to split files to be loaded up in smaller chunks (using the Ocean, Domark, System 3 or Dinamic solutions) or make a smart loader / loadertable enabling fileloading from cart like Silverrock did.
Since everything about almost all carts are well documented and all carts (save for one!) are emulated - debugging should also be quite easy. Question is only why you should bother doing it, if its not for production of new games? In emu, an ALT-W (or true drive emulation - off) does the trick and on the real thing loading from an MMC-card (MMC-64, MMC-Replay) or from HD (IDE-64) is damned quick as it is.
Don't get me wrong here - I would love to see someone pick up the torch and make new physical carts for all the new and upcoming games out there. It'd be wonderful to see Knight&Grail, Pushover64, Joe Gunn, Zoomania and all the other wonderful games being released on a generic cart. The MSX people have done it before, and we definitly got the technical knowledge to do it. I just don't see the need to crack games and adapt them to cart to make people able to play them faster in an emu.
As far as I know it, no scene-made cartadaptions have ever been made - but a few years ago, a new multibank 256k cart was produced; the Prophet 64. |
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Ghostrider
Administrator
Posts: 45 |
For myself personally, it's not only about the speed of loading, but also about the "feel" of a cartridge. Back in the days I always thought games that were released on cartridge had a certain air of "luxury" or quality about them. And apparently that feeling never really left me. :) |
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AlexC
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 298 |
As CRT format handles both Expert, AR, RR and Toki carts there is no problem to put anything you like on virtual cartridge. |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Why not go one step further and use an existing flash-cart like retro-replay?
emus suck
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I'm not really sure how the RR handles the bankswitching, and how much memory it handles? 64k? As far as I can recall it, the standard AR's have 4 banks (32k) mapped between $8000-$A000. Even if the RR handles 64k, it's still way too small for a multiloaded game. I still believe that the best solution would be to make a clone of the Ocean or Domark-carts with 256m flash-chips on them.
Took a quick look at the last preview of Pushover 64, and that seems to be a quite nice candidate to put on a Ocean-type 128k cart. One generic motor which should fit into 3 banks, perhaps a titlescreen/intro which would fit into 1 bank. Each bank would fit around 7 or 8 levels with the current compression and the music would need one additional bank. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
Recently, a few games written by TMR were released on cartridges.
http://rgcd.co.uk/shop/reviews/kikstart-invasive-cart-project/ |
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AlexC
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 298 |
Quote: Why not go one step further and use an existing flash-cart like retro-replay?
emus suck
Because there is no big deal going from CRT to RR code if you have the CRT at first place. Treat CRT just like D64 image - it's just a format to transfer bytes. Don't forget about RR built-in mapper ;) |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
afaik, crt is some kind of container-format, describing all different kind of cartridges.. so, "going from crt code to rr code" doesnt really make sense
anyway, 2f is probably right, rr is way too small for 90s carts.
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
MMC Replay has 512k of ram and 512k of flash rom. But considering the amount of 1541 ultimates sold, I think making REU versions makes more sense, even if there will be initial loading time. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Not entirely unrelated - have you guys checked out the development of Adoreware's (www.adoreware.com) new cart, the Extreme Cartridge 2? According to what I could read from the forum, the cartridge now emulates almost all the known C-64 carts.
Ocean, System 3, Dinamic, Domark - all bigger carts with bankswitching seems to work, meaning that it probably emulates the Prophet 64 straight away aswell. This is a quite interesting development, and if this goes into production like the 1541-U did, it might be interesting.
Or just wait until Gideon implements support for a wider range of carts for the 1541-U. :-) |
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AlexC
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 298 |
Quote: afaik, crt is some kind of container-format, describing all different kind of cartridges.. so, "going from crt code to rr code" doesnt really make sense
anyway, 2f is probably right, rr is way too small for 90s carts.
Exactly - as CRT is just a well documented container you can later convert the code to anything you really like or write your own "mapper" to deal with code in CRT file. My point was that you can use MMC Replay to load different crt images (however this functionality is limited). |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
From what i understand, HeavyStylus (who runs RGCD and put out three of my games on stock 8K cartridges so far) and his hardware pusher are currently working at getting Ocean-style cartridges fabricated... in fact, i have a terrible memory and they might already have workers but without anything to actually put on 'em... |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
If HeavyStylus actually have managed to clone the Ocean-carts, that's really great. I have also wondered whether he have been manufacturing unique casings for them aswell?
I really adore the dedication of people doing this - I mean, making a prototype cart is one thing. Manufacturing boards and shells / casings is a completely different issue. I really adore the fact that people have taken the time and money do this. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Help needed!
Just wanted to add that i've taken on a task to actually produce a cartridge-board able to hold a bigger game - just as mentioned in the thread earlier. I have so far backwards-engineered (= traced down all the lines on, and documented) an Ocean 128k cart modified to use a standard DIP-32 flashrom instead of the NES-standard PRG-rom which it originally used. My intention is to make a development-board and put it into (limited) production. That should enable interested people to produce a cartridge able to hold a game equivalent in size of most of the Ocean games produced on cart (Toki, Pang, Navy Seals, Battle Command, Double Dragon, Batman and Robocop III).
I'd appreciate any comment or any help on this project. I haven't got any reply from Heavy Stylus yet on his project, but from what I could read on Lemon64, the limit of the carts he intend to make would be 64k.
Some facts about the current status:
* A 128K, Ocean-system compatible cart.
* Uses an 27C010/29ee011 rom, a 74LS273 and a 74LS02.
* All components will need to be manually soldered to the board.
* Will fit in the Individual Computers cartridge shells.
* Current total cost of apx. 15-20 euro (with shell).
What I would like it to be able to do:
* Support 256K or 512K eproms (size of all commercially released C-64 carts).
* Changing form-factor of the rom to a AM29F040, PLCC since they are cheap and easily obtainable.
* Adapting it to be able to mimic the System 3 or Domark carts memorymapping by setting or removing bridges.
* Cutting the cost down to make it more affordable.
If any of you could explain how the A17 pin of a 256K eprom needs to be routed in order to map the upper 128K to $A000 (like on the bigger Ocean-carts) I would be very thankful. It's kind of frustrating knowing that the components used is virtually the same in all bigger carts - and that I just lack the knowledge in electronics to implement it. Please help out if you can.
For some examples of what have been achieved on other scenes, please check this out. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
"If any of you could explain how the A17 pin of a 256K eprom needs to be routed in order to map the upper 128K to $A000 (like on the bigger Ocean-carts) I would be very thankful. It's kind of frustrating knowing that the components used is virtually the same in all bigger carts - and that I just lack the knowledge in electronics to implement it. Please help out if you can."
Didn't the Data Doktor(tm) answered your mails? If not, I'll whip him! |
