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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
tagging your logos and pictures.
Well, i was wondering about something lately, why does everyone need to put a tag (label, his her name, whatever) inside or next to their pictures and logos.
To me nowadays (i used to do it back in the day) it seems inproper and unstyled, often making a picture looking unbalanced or sometimes even ugly. i was just wondering what you thoughts on this were.
celtic |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
You need the signature in every little logo to give your releases that special lame and unprofessional style, which is so popular in the scene.
Some people, eg. the Scene World crew, even add it to pictures they haven't drawn themselves! |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
"Lame and unprofessional"? Heh :-) Would we like the scene to be "professional"...and what do you mean by that anyway?
Even Picasso signed his pictures as far as I know, most artists have always done this, except those poor bastards working for Walt Disney etc.
Let people sign their pictures or logos or whatever if they want, as long as the "tag" isn't bigger than the logo ;-)
The graphician who made the piece should bloody well be the one who decides if it makes the picture look unbalanced or not...
Oh, and here's a thing - I - was wondering about lately; why does everyone need to put a tag (label, his/her name, whatever) at the end of the text they post in this forum, when their handle is clearly listed on the side of the posting...? ;-)
.Mermaid.
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Of course it's up to the person painting the picture whether to sign it or not. But it's also up to the person making the demo whether he wants to remove the signature or not. A logo with a signature in a demo looks lame. In my opinion. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
In MY opinion any coder who alters a picture or logo drawn by someone else but herself/himself is much lamer than someone who signs her or his artwork.
The coder can chose not to use the logo, or ask the graphician to remove the signature, but to tamper with someone else's work like that is lame.
.Mermaid. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
Heheh, seems the discussion is starting of already :)
I think that altering pictures or logos by removing the tag is not very very lame or anything, In some cases i actually understand it, however, i think ofcourse that the artist should be consulted about this.
anyone else got a though on this? |
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Warbaby
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: |
I think altering pictures from someone is definitly lame. Artists deserve respect!
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I don't mind logos/pictures being tagged, sometimes it's nice to see who made the thing without having to wait for the end/credits or whatever. I very much like the little dk on DeeKay's gfx. Then again, I'm not trendy enough for modern scene. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Mermaid: the very lame coder who removes the tag would of course ask the person who painted the logo/picture if it's okay, and if it's not, the very lame coder will use some other graphics.
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Zeitgeist
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 22 |
actually a tag can add a lot to a logo as long as it's something original and/or remarkable. For example RRR uses some pretty nice tags. Even nicer are symbols, figurs or signs instead of bold handles. I've also seen that here and there, but can't quite remember where. And after all: What a strange discussion this is :-) ...
.oOo.Zeitgeist.oOo. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I think altering pictures from someone is definitly lame. Artists deserve respect!
Artists do yes. Then again, there are only a few real artists in the demoscene :)
/Marco |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Artists do yes. Then again, there are only a few real artists in the demoscene :)
/Marco
i'm a piss-artist, does that count...? =-) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: i'm a piss-artist, does that count...? =-)
Just as long as you don't tag me :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Just as long as you don't tag me :)
[Produces a can of spray paint] Hold still, this won't hurt a bit... =-)
To drag myself into the same place as the topic for a bit; i don't see why a graphics bod can't sign their work, considering the effort that goes into a picture or logo a little recognition is probably deserved.
i don't sign the pics i produce 'cos (as i've said elsewhere) they're not all my own work and there is normally a wired image as the template - there are two exceptions to that, but i put so much work into it i might as well have done it from scratch... =-) |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
1) This is the scene, it is NOT art, it is NOT graffiti and it is NOT commercial
2) putting my nick next to a logo or image I did shows that I am fucking proud of this piece of graphics and it is MY contribution to the overall outcome of this demo
3) any coder removing my tag would be asked to leave the group or I would leave it, I don't remove superfluous bits of code either.
4) RRR had a nice tag, a shame all the logos looked the same. (proof: http://www.cupid.de/logo-o-matic/logocreator.php)
5) If a tag makes a logo or a picture appear "unbalanced", either the painter was crap or your balance is out of proportion.
6) Who defined tags being "outdated style" anyways? If you look at amiga stuff you still see tags in logos...
7) where have all the real logo wizards like double artistry gone
8) why am I still writing this
9) Who framed roger rabbit?
10) why is abbreviation such a long word?
11) why is transportation of goods cargo on water but shipment on land?
12) Be grateful for all the logos and pictures you get, and don't question the nice graphicians, pet them, give them food and money after all they make your demo colourful
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
oh dear, comparing the work of producing c64 logos to the work of picasso...well, atleast its fun that some people take the demoscene seriously.
and it seems like cupid somewhere in his preaching realized that it might seem a bit pretentious using such big words when the work he's defending is basically identical to those eastblock logocollection that kept showing up in my mailbox every other day back in 96.
btw. my favourite use of tag is the smash logo(that people kept misreading as smosh) in event horizon on pc. a nice 3d scene, a logo is placed on top, and aeg's name next to it. i guess he worked hard on that logo and is damn proud. good that the coder didnt remove the tag.
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Hmm, nice comparison, we talked about C-64 logos and pictures sporting tags and Hollowman tosses in a PC demo as a bad example. :) Is it me or did something go wrong here?
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
Tagging is fine be me, like said before as long as the picture won't get messed up with it. And you don't have to tag everything (just like real graffiti).
For instance tagging every picture in a 'concept' demo could distract and get's annoying watching the name over and over again. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
cupid, yeah...a logo by a person who has also done heaps of stuff on c64. but since the logo was in a pc demo its ofcourse a completely different story? sorry, i will try not to use such a complicated example again if it is that hard for you to grasp. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3051 |
"We are rulez!" (CreaMD, CMD, Creative Music Developer, Creamdo, CreaMDMA, Creamoniq, CreamD, Roman, [Roman], Dmagician, Romanko, Romoman, Romisoft, Romik)
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RRR
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 21 |
Cupid: jealous? Remove my charsets from your website and remain in silence. Seems you still love to hear yourself talking or in this case writing.
Regarding your so-called proof: ofcourse every smart person is able to understand that logos made with my charsets must look identical since the charsets are fixed and won't offer much options for variety. And no, I do not take responsibility for any logos made with those old charsets since I can't control the (ab)usage (see: games like e.g. Tronik, the Onslaught Antiques intro, etc.).
Nevertheless, I doubt you are in the position to judge this case when you haven't seen even a third of my work. If you want to give a statement about ALL my logos and graphics you must have seen them all. Easy, isn't it? Yes, they are all made in Amica Paint and use the prefixed CBM 64 palette. Too bad. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3051 |
I once knew dude, who judged personality and skills without even hearing a bit of my music...
My Tag |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Cool RRR is still alive...
I am not jealous, and if I only saw a third of your stuff, fair enough. Fact is though that loads of your commonly known and spread logos did look like they were done with the same charset. Just some added backgrounds and changed colors and voila, another one.
That was the thing that made me wonder why someone judges your tag to be cool :)
Hollowman, even if crossbow would have done that pc demo, the comparison is still irrelevant. And AEG is a nice guy but his tagging was always superfluous, and releasing an image in a demo and a graphics compo at the same party is lame in my point of view.
Anyways I will still keep tagging my stuff, and either if you don't want to or do, as long as you release nice non wired graphics, thumbs up for you...
Hah! Lovely now I have seen myself typing again... And did not do the graphic I promised anonym, damn.
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 267 |
Chris: Watch out, I am right behind you ;-)
Always and everywhere /Frank |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
cupid, yes what an irrelevant comparison. Compare c64 logo to the work of picasso==ok. Compare c64 logo to pc logo==no fxxing way. Go on typing instead of drawing. You have always been better at making yourself look big by bashing other graphicians like your continous bullying of rrr than you have been good at proving yourself with your pixelling. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Ah, look everyone - the scene in harmony...
[Wanders off, giggling =-] |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Hmm I don't remember me saying mermaid's comparison was valid. However I will not say anything against it, it may be understood as bashing mermaid for getting all her fame...
btw, hollowman you need to relax once in a while (no pun intended).
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mindflow
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 4 |
criticism times understanding equals impact. |
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matt'
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 3 |
puterman probably never drew anything worth signing.
every graphics designer who is proud of his/her production wants to put their name next to it. just like any creative production where contributers want some sort of recognition.
not just commodore 64, but as others say, the whole history of art and design.
it's only lame and unprofessional when it's gaudy and out of place, or overbearing or obviously too self indulgent. but when it's that little touch at the side, like the great masters, it looks good.
hey, and comparing the c64 scene to picasso is right on. when you look at the history of multimedia, a lot of it was happening on the c64 before anywhere else. in 100 years time when they chart the history of multimedia design, they may well put the little old c64 right there at the beginning. some of the early c64 demos could be seen as some of the original contributions to the history of design.
remember how they laughed at the surrealistics, the impressionists and the other avante-garde. history reveals all. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
No, I've never done anything I'd compare with Picasso's works. I'm definitely not as important to the history of art as the impressionists, the surrealists or their peers in the C-64 scene.
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matt'
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 3 |
puterman - you can be humble and sign your works as well. many do. irrespective of what you say, the general consensus is against you. many creative people of all levels of talent, whether good or bad, have signed their works, and will sign their works in the future.
of course, there are some places where signing your works is out of place (commercial activities). but in the c64 demo scene - whats the point of the demo - isn't it to demonstrate ? to show talent ? to entertain ? etc. there are many artists who were the otherwise anonymous authors of creative works who happily only sign their names to items that they create themselves, not items that they've been paid to create. that's professionalism. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Matt, I understand what you're saying. And sure, if you're so desperate to get recognition for what you do, that you can't trust people to read the note to find out who drew that 3 colour logo, tag it. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Matt:
>>hey, and comparing the c64 scene to picasso is right on.
Eh, excuse me? How can you compare a complete scene to just one person? Picasso was a brilliant painter for sure, but there have been hundreds of thousands not-so-brilliant ones as well.
Just because you're part of the c64-scene, which indeed has given us some wonderful stuff in the past, doesn't make you an artist yourself.
>>it's only lame and unprofessional when it's gaudy and out of place, or overbearing or obviously too self indulgent. but when it's that little touch at the side, like the great masters, it looks good
Like the great masters? Great masters stood for innovation, and be honest, our scene is not exactly flooded with that.
And no, putting even more sprites in a multiplex is not innovation :)
Most logo's SUCK and are not worth tagging. The quality of logo's was somewhat high in the early 90's but some of the stuff I see these days makes me cringe. If I was the painter of such a logo, I would lie and put the blame on Sander.
Who by the way is one of the few people nowadays who has a reason to tag his work. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
Well, just a little reply to marco.
IN a way he is right, some stuff don't deserve the tagging nowdays. and i miss those great old school logos from the great folks. However, do not say sander is the only one, there are more that deserve the respect.
TO this subject, i stopped tagging my logos because i think they were annoying to my gfx. And to be honest some off my work isn't worth to be tagged...
ah well, i like the discussion here, anyone else got something to say on this?
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Ah the good old days when logos were really good and releases were bold and beautiful.
I think there are still outstanding people who o outstanding logos these days. Back in the "good old days" a lot more good people made logos and pictures. Nowadays those good people do other creative work, may it be online or offline.
I do see a lot of crappy releases and pictures and logos these days as well, but one thing keeps me from cringing: those people still do something for the c-64 and with a little help, some tools and some ideas they can be become a lot better. Really good people doing nothing but talking about the good old times are as useless to the scene than people releasing bad quality.
Don't get me wrong, I still consider Sander an amazing designer. Old stuff by die2, double artistry, electric and all the others is still great, but for the sake of releases and keeping this scene bit going I rather shut up, and do something, than improving my bits for monthes and try to be new and innovative and never release anything in time...
I begin to think that C-64 will never be a platform for "design" rather for "technical amazement in a nice wrapping"...
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mindflow
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 4 |
...and I recommend the book "no logo". |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: ...and I recommend the book "no logo".
Why? =-) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Celtic:
Ofcourse Sander isn't the only one, that's why I said "one of the few". And no, I don't consider myself one either, although you don't have to be a graphician to be an artist in the scene.
Cupid: I don't mind people doing bad graphics, but don't mind me slagging it off either. And as far as your remark about the 'just talking about the good old times and not doing anything else': quality-wise I don't consider them that good anymore (I prefer the more interesting concept-driven demos of today). Also I remember a small demo called Timewaster we released last year which, I think, took a pretty different approach to c64 demos. Which is what we're trying to do these days, explore the boundaries of c64 demos. And by we I don't mean just Sander. It's easy to think that since he's the designer all idea's are by him but in reality it's more 50-50.
I'm getting a bit sick of the "stop giving your opinion and do something productive" routine, esp. when it is clear that I am being productive (still, after 15 years of demo coding - how many more people do you know who have been here this long?). Plus even if I was not active I still had a reason to state my opinion: it's called expertise. Experience. You know, there's a reason why they ask ex-professional football players to analyse games.
And even if I didn't have this track-record that I have, I *still* would give my opinion, because, ehm, nobody can stop me?
Finally my statement to tagging (because I never made one, I just said that comparing all sceners to Picasso is nonsense): I don't care. An ugly logo will still be an ugly logo, with our without a tag. But don't compare logos to paintings because a painting is something which needs to stand on its own: the credits for a logo can easily be put somewhere else, like somebody already stated.
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
For the love of god, would you guys PLEASE stop bitching about the picasso comparison? This was a mermaid quote only, so talk to her about it...
No logo is a good book, that's for sure. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: For the love of god, would you guys PLEASE stop bitching about the picasso comparison? This was a mermaid quote only, so talk to her about it...
No logo is a good book, that's for sure.
Ehm no, I reacted to Matt's statement. Who said that that Mermaid's statement is right on.
But you know what, I stop bitching about Picasso (as if I have more to bitch about) if you stop bitching about people talking but not doing anything, because frankly I'm getting sick of hearing it. Then we can both go back to creating our 30+ almost-exactly-the-same-but-not-quite c64 products per year. Deal? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Also one other thing, to everybody here: don't hold the fact that I think Sander is an artist against him. If you just think he's a pretentious twat, that's okay, in a way he is. And so am I. That's why we work together so well.
Hey, at least *I* am being honest about it :) |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Lucky for everybody : "Taste is different, everybody has his own taste and that closes all discussions...".
Discussions are nice, people can learn from it. But at the final, everybody does his own thing (respecting or not respecting somebody elses taste).
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3051 |
;-)
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
Hey serge, you kinda took the fun out of this discussion :) |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
Oh yeah, and in RRR's defence, i once contacted him with the same question about his graphics, that they were 'all the same'. In a short time he send me most of his gfx on disk to me, explaining the fact that the gfx that were most spread were probably all i saw. Well, to be honest i guess it was, only a small fragment of his gfx looks alike, perhaps 10 percent of the total. He did some great stuff actually! Remember the great Relax logos??
Greets to you Ravishing Rick Rude :)
celtic |
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VoDKa
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 32 |
I might aswell drop a comment on this too:
I always sign my work. I like good stuff to be sign so I know who´s made it. I never have the time to watch that damn up-scoller in the end-part for the credits. (The end-part, the one with the slow & sad music you know ;-) |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
Bah, just check "Trust your eyes 1991" by Crest + G*P you can even have sad and slow music in a Hidden vector cube part :) "Soldier of fortune" what a sid!!! |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick!
I never compared all sceners to Picasso.
Puterman expressed his opinion that signing logos and stuff was lame and unprofessional. I then responded that even Picasso signed his work (...so would Picasso be lame and unprofessional as well, since he obviously felt the need to sign his paintings and signing your work is such a lame thing to do?).
People should be allowed to sign their logos or paintings if they want to, I don't see why not.
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Cupid:
"Hmm I don't remember me saying mermaid's comparison was valid. However I will not say anything against it, it may be understood as bashing mermaid for getting all her fame..."
...jeez, what's all this about?
Hollowman:
"No, I've never done anything I'd compare with Picasso's works. I'm definitely not as important to the history of art as the impressionists, the surrealists or their peers in the C-64 scene."
...Dear H0ll0wman, if you're saying that I think *I* am, you couldn't be more wrong. Is this really what you think?
The Dark Judge:
"Then we can both go back to creating our 30+ almost-exactly-the-same-but-not-quite c64 products per year. Deal?"
...man, why are you so bitter? With an attitude like that, what sort of masochist are you to stay in the c64 scene?
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Mermaid, I'm this "bitter" (I would say sarcastic, but hey!) because I try to give something new to the c64 scene together with Sander, have proven myself over and over again in the past 15 years and still I get that "you don't do anything so you can't say anything" shit.
But your question is a legit one. Why do I stay in this scene? Eh, perhaps because I love the machine and I want to prove that there's much more possible to do with it than 'we' as a scene have done before?
It's not because of the nice personalities here, I can tell you that ..
I'm here for myself and for Sander, and yes, we are both constantly considering the fact to move on. Because it seems no matter what you do, it's never enough.
Alas, let it be knows, I don't consider myself part of the c64 scene, and haven't been doing so for a long time .. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Quote: Jesus Christ on a pogo stick!
I never compared all sceners to Picasso.
Puterman expressed his opinion that signing logos and stuff was lame and unprofessional. I then responded that even Picasso signed his work (...so would Picasso be lame and unprofessional as well, since he obviously felt the need to sign his paintings and signing your work is such a lame thing to do?).
People should be allowed to sign their logos or paintings if they want to, I don't see why not.
If you re-read my message, you'll see that that wasn't what I said. I was talking about releases, not single pictures or logos. I think it looks silly with a demo where there's a little signature in every logo or picture.
And as for Picasso: as Picasso never made any graphics for scene related releases, it must be the case that you see some kind of analogy between Picasso's works and scene graphics. Otherwise it's not relevant to the discussion in any way. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
>Hollowman:
>"No, I've never done anything I'd compare with Picasso's >works. I'm definitely not as important to the history of >art as the impressionists, the surrealists or their peers >in the C-64 scene."
>
>...Dear H0ll0wman, if you're saying that I think *I* am, >you couldn't be more wrong. Is this really what you think?
uhmm...i am hollow-man, that post was written by puter-man.
ahwell, i could have been mixed up with a more embarassing person, like almost any of the other people involved in this discussion(except for the lovely TDJ, *hug*).
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Thanks Hollowman, I needed that ;)
* Judges need lovin' too! * |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote: If you re-read my message, you'll see that that wasn't what I said. I was talking about releases, not single pictures or logos. I think it looks silly with a demo where there's a little signature in every logo or picture.
And as for Picasso: as Picasso never made any graphics for scene related releases, it must be the case that you see some kind of analogy between Picasso's works and scene graphics. Otherwise it's not relevant to the discussion in any way.
When we're discussing scene matters we're not allowed to use examples from other areas of the world? That's rather restricting I think. Where is the rulebook, I'd like to see where it says that any example used in a discussion must be taken from within the actual c64 scene. Until you produce that paragraph...well...stupid as I am, here I go again:
Picasso signed his work. Was that lame and unprofessional of him?
I don't think so.
Is it lame of a 7-year old to sign a water colour painting she did of a dinosaur?
I don't think so.
Is it lame and unprofessional of a c64 scener to sign the graphics he/she creates?
I don't think so.
A 7 year old's painting of a dinosaur is art. Picasso's work is art. A piece of graphics on the c64 is art. If the artist choses to sign his or her work it should be up to them and the idea that signing your work is "lame and unprofessional" seems a little strange to me.
Art (n)
1. a) Creation or expression of sth. beautiful, esp in a visual form, eg painting, sculpture etc: "the art of the Renaissance", "children's art". b) Skill in such creation
c) instances of this (...)
And...since Celtic was talking about logos and pictures in general and your message was a direct response to his question, well, I guess I probably misread your message then, sorry about that. I still disagree with you.
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
>When we're discussing scene matters we're not allowed to >use examples from other areas of the world? That's rather >restricting I think. Where is the rulebook, I'd like to >see where it says that any example used in a discussion >must be taken from within the actual c64 scene. Until you >produce that paragraph...well...stupid as I am, here I go >again:
i think cupid has more information about those rules since he was the one that wouldnt allow me to use aeg's logo for smash on pc as an example |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Puterman must probably have a copy of the rules as well, judging from his previous statement. |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Talk about your average infected topic. I used to tag, now I don't. I don't like the look of it anymore. A matter of taste, that's all. (And all this time I thought people actually READ the credits in those upscrollers with the slow, sad music...) |
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
I'll agree with the previous statement. Used to do it, don't do it that often anymore. Rather, I'll still do it if I can integrate it with the graphic. If it doesn't really go well, or if it stands out to a preposterous level, then I'm not going to do it.
Now, do I think it should be done? Don't think it really matters. I know that I don't read the upscrolls with the sad music, so... then, most artists have a style so you (well, I know I) can kind of identify who did what without tagging.
Right then. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I know I need tags or atleast decent notefile or credits to the simple to understand. Some people could do what Ogami did atleast once, using different bit pairs but same colour assignment, embed who done it into the picture. Ogami's piccy is FLI and reminds me of a zombie coming at me. The area with his name (Ogami V2.2 or something it says) is written in black in a black area. I thought it was brilliant. Some rippers wouldn't even notice it if they rebadged it.
I cannot tell who done what by style. Many music routines also have a section that enables music credits if needed to be used. |
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wec
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 3 |
I tag both my logo's & my pictures. It's away of signing your
stuff so every one can see who did what. It's always good to
see Electrics 'e' & Deekays 'dk'. Although i have to admit,
the Sarge/Tried did take things abit too far ;P
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Goblin
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 10 |
I always used to tag my stuff. Tried to make it as small as possible though, in the end I tagged it with a short-form (gob instead of goblin). I think it's okay, graphicians want their 15 mins of fame too I guess... Bah!
/Goblin |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
This discussion got ridiculous many posts ago, here is a little bite to make it even more. :) Just to annoy PaterPi who got bored of reading this way too long discussion about the plain nothing ;))
(a usual busy day at #c-64)
[02:44] <Stryyker> god reason why tagging logos is acceptable if the gfxer wants to do it I'd say
[02:47] <jailbird_> why NOT TO tag? i can't see the reason. it's your work, so you tag it.
[02:48] <Stryyker> I tag music :)
[02:50] <jailbird_> well, there is also some kind of tag in zaks, right? i mean when you list the memory of a music, you mostly see who has done it
[02:50] <Stryyker> yep
[02:51] <jailbird_> so a picture/logo without a tag would be like a music without knowing who composed it or an effect without knowing who programmed it |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: This discussion got ridiculous many posts ago, here is a little bite to make it even more. :) Just to annoy PaterPi who got bored of reading this way too long discussion about the plain nothing ;))
(a usual busy day at #c-64)
[02:44] <Stryyker> god reason why tagging logos is acceptable if the gfxer wants to do it I'd say
[02:47] <jailbird_> why NOT TO tag? i can't see the reason. it's your work, so you tag it.
[02:48] <Stryyker> I tag music :)
[02:50] <jailbird_> well, there is also some kind of tag in zaks, right? i mean when you list the memory of a music, you mostly see who has done it
[02:50] <Stryyker> yep
[02:51] <jailbird_> so a picture/logo without a tag would be like a music without knowing who composed it or an effect without knowing who programmed it
And ofcourse you're comparing apples with pears here, since the 'tagging' of music is invisible, unlike that of logos.
's funny what people tend to come up with to make their point :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Ok, tagging musics is probably not hurting anyone aestethic feelings, so noone cares if a music is tagged or not. Still most of musicians keep tagging their musics because it's the only way of signing their work.
There are some examples of coders leaving their handles in the memory, so they're also tagging (not too often, but they are).
The only way of a graphician making clear that the logo/picture is his work, is leaving his handle or it's acronym on the screen. As long is it done with style and it's nice and/or small, you souldn't care, really. Reasons against leaving signs, like "tagging going out of fashion" or "it looks unstyled", all the more, "it's unprofessional" are just stupid. Example: just look at the graffity-scene (i'm comparing it to the c64 pixel-scene - which is quite similar to it, except the illegal part, - and not the whole c64 scene, just to make it clear). |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
The reasons why musicians 'tag' their work is quite simple: the chance that their tune will be re-used is rather big (at least, if they're any good). For both code & graphics, this is not the case (unless you consider ripping).
Also, not too many people are going to check the memory to see who did the music, if they're interested they're going to look for the credits, same place where they can find out who coded the part and who made that ugly logo. So why should the graphician have his handle on the screen there all the time, while the other people who did do as much work don't? What makes the graphician so fucking important? Aren't demos meant to be team-efforts most of the time (unless your name is Dane)?
You can't say that claiming "tagging is unstylish" is stupid, because for some people it is, style is very much a subjective matter.
Final point: the graffiti scene. First of all, most of those pieces are ugly (like most logos) so I don't care if they're tagged or not (like most logos). Second: if they're tagged, most of the time the size of the tag is very small compared to the size of the piece. If you tag a logo, the proportions are quite different, meaning the tag has a much bigger effect on the overall picture (pun intended).
Now, let me once again make clear: I don't care if you tag your logo or not, I only care if somebody I work with tags their logo and/or work, and if it interferes with the total product. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Quote: And ofcourse you're comparing apples with pears here, since the 'tagging' of music is invisible, unlike that of logos.
's funny what people tend to come up with to make their point :)
If, on the other hand, you'd "tag" your tune by adding a digi with your name, it'd be similar to tagging pictures. Or if you'd add your name to the screen in every part you code. I don't think the first idea has been used, but the second one has, to some extent (see Embryo/Padua). |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
yep, embryo is probably the best example of why the coder should keep his ego in control.
as for grafitti, most of the work i've seen consists of nothing but a big tag. the other pieces are tagged, but i guess thats because its hard to make upscrollers with credits using nothing but paint on a wall.
if the gfx:ans wants to tag their logos, just draw the tag in black. demos that got logos probably got black background throughout the demo aswell
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Hmm, after all, is tagging graphics on computers somehow connected to real-life art?
Btw, I've concluded. No, of course not, I'm just kidding... :)
1. If someone tags a logo, means that he could seem much more important than everyone else he is working with on a certain project/demopart/whatever. Gosh TDJ, I can't believe you're serious. DeeKay is much more important than Crossbow just because he tagged his logos in..., whatever, some Crest demo, and Valsary is much important than HCL, Brush or Shogoon.
Strange, I've never realised, I was never warned about that. Sure, if the coders or the musicians feel inferior becasue of my 5x5 pixel huge JB tag on the screen, from now on I won't sign my pictures. Actually it makes sense... It became kind of a tradition on c64, and scene-tradition is a thorn in the flesh of some. But yes, it could be that some people may feel neglected by seeing the graphician's acronym on the screen while their's isn't. We haven't seen too much posts from coders or musicians about their opinion on the topic. As far as I am concerned, I'd be very interested.
2. The tag is disturbing the overall look.
In some cases I must agree. Especially when it comes to Focus demos. And my intentions are not to disagree with everything TDJ states here (because he seems to be under the influence of that). Look at SNN/Padua, where I was pretty sure that a tag will look weird on the fire-part graphics, same goes for the logo in the VN#38 intro. I still don't get it how will, f. e. my Civitas logo (http://www.suonline.net/~arnoldc/civitas.gif) turn one of Puterman's demos inside-out, just because there is a tag on it? Or if we get back to point one, and if it is hard to get over a tag on the screen, I'll remove it, as long it's the only problem why noone used up this logo till now (or it's just ugly, it might be the case, it is still better than any Civitas logo i've seen, with all my respect to fellow designers and graphicans in the group, however it doesn't seems that there are any).
3. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't "reusing" musics, errm, a bit lame? Is that for sure the main reason of tagging musics? Even if someone puts a ripped music into a demo, I believe he'll list the credits somewhere. Or won't credit the musician, but that's pure lameness.
Visible or "invisible"? It's either tagging.
4. As I get it, for some, tagging is *all in all* unstylish? "Tags are unstylish" is a stupid opinion as long the reason isn't explained to me by one scener of those. Are we talking about the style of the logos here ("sickened by the tag"), the style of the demos (to be specific, some screens in the demo) using tagged logos, or just the tags?
5. We are mostly discussing about the logos, and what about the pictures? The same?
6. Speaking of credits, do anyone of you, non-Crest members, know the exact credits of Krestology? I often hear something like "all the graphics were done by DeeKay". Sure. :) Now do you see the power of tags! ;))
Yeah-yeah, Puterman, I got your point. :) However, I'd never mind a digivoice or the coder's nick as a sprite, whilst my logo shown "un-tagged" on the same screen. ;)
Oh, and by the way. A bit offtopic. The "ugly" graffity logos are called "bombs", they're mostly not signed because they're made very fastly (usually in two colours), on trains, railways, even buses or public places. There could be tags beside them, again done very quickly, nevertheless when the artist bombs his own nickname, it's pointless to tag it. Signing and tagging aren't really the same on the graffity scene. Tags are those weird shapes and marks you see everywhere on the streets, not neccesarily made by a graffity artist, yet also by 14 years old kids imitating the writings from the walls. You take care a bit more about representing your "tag" when spraying "real", huge, beautiful graffities (f. e. Crew Logos), which are mostly done without hurry, by a sketch, using many colours. They're ALWAYS tagged (well, as long if the artist(s) don't gets disturbed before finishing the piece). From my personal experience, I'd say that the tag<=>graffity proportions are quite like the same as on C64. I rarely see extra huge tags on c64. E. g. V for Valsary, P for Poison, QPD for Cupid or JB or J. for me. How much will these tiny shits affect to the logo or the screen's ballance, please?
Heh, and I'm very glad to meet the first person below the age of 50, while not beeing a police-fag or a house painter, disliking graffity art. ;) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Tagging is for credits, right? If you like a logo/picture, you'll eventually read the upscroll/note/creditspart to find out who did it, I suspect, thus making a visible tag quite unneccesary.
Yes, to tag or not is a question of tradition, as well as style. When I started out pixeling most people did, and so I tagged my stuff as well. Nowadays I don't, simply because I trust credits elsewhere to name me as responsible for the graphics.
When packing music made in the JCH-player (and seceral other music programs) you get the option to add credits or comment in the packed tune. I used to think this was quite funny, to add a fitting one-liner matching the title of the tune. The thing is, however, that I'm most often credited elsewhere when my music is used - I hope - which also makes this a bit unneccessary. (32 bytes, man!)
So I suppose what I'm getting at is that I can't really see the point of tagging any longer, as I've now come to expect more detailed credits in releases.
But that's just me. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I agree with you Dane. If there are complete credits beside the release, it's not really necessary to add tags, I believe we got accostumed to sign logos, just as copying other's works. But, as there is no rule against copies, neither there will be against tagging, even if some would really like that. Gotta move on in a positive way, sure. So God bless the noters, so specific to our scene!
What made my ass itchy were those points above, in my previous post. I am not saying tag is a must, just can't believe that some people are connecting tagging with style, superiority, proportions, fashion, professionality or whatsoever.
However, Dane, you're in a special situation by being in Crest and making your own demos, don't forget that. Musicians will now, _at least_, always get the credits by HVSC. While, when there are 4-5 graphicians working on a huge project, it's very possible that the person watching the demo won't be able or just won't connect the artist and the picture/logo only by reading the credits in the upscroll or the note (define it by lazyness, not caring about the complete credits, or just stupidity/ignorance). Mixing up the graphicians, that's hundreds of times noticed in reviews. And it is quite dissapointing when someone is writing/talking about your work but crediting another graphician.
Oh, btw, we were working together with Lubber in Embryo, and I think noone in Padua got offended by the coder's "uncontrolled ego". All the more as I know Lubber as a very kind, nice, modest and humble person. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Jailbird, I'm not going to continue this discussion, as it seems you misinterpret most of my statements. Also, you draw conclusions bases on absolutely nothing. As for graffiti: I think I know enough about the subject, as it's a big part of the hip-hop subculture, and I've been wandering around in that for quite a long time too. Some graffiti is really beautiful, most of it is really ugly. Just like logos. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Ok with me. Actually it is not, but whatever. It's btw kind of interesting that you usually don't retreat so easily when someone "misinterprets" your statements. That's not the TDJ I am used to :)
And no I didn't drew any conclusions. I think I made that clear two posts ago. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Jailbird: some random comments about some of the stuff you've written in your 3 latest messages...
> is tagging graphics on computers somehow connected to real-life art?
Well, some people have told me that they consider C-64 demos in general to be art. I'd be a bit more restrictive, otherwise we'd broaden the term "art" to such an extent that it will be synonymous with "artefact", and I think "art" is more useful as a word if it's used to denote a subset of the artefacts.
As for a tag in a Civitas logo turning one of my demos inside out, it might, especially since I stopped using logos. In one of the older demos it wouldn't matter, because they're pretty crappy anyway. (Yes, anonymous reader, you are now free to tell me that all my demos are crappy.)
As for tagging logos and pictures (again), I find it 1) unnecessary and 2) ugly. But I think it's a good idea to try to integrate the graphics with the effects and whatever you might have on the screen (and the music), and then tags just don't cut it, unless you try to make some sort of point with it.
I also don't like graffitti (sp?) at all, but I like to defend it when adults attack it.
Musicians may get some attention through HVSC, but often incorrect credits. :-)
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Ok with me. Actually it is not, but whatever. It's btw kind of interesting that you usually don't retreat so easily when someone "misinterprets" your statements. That's not the TDJ I am used to :)
And no I didn't drew any conclusions. I think I made that clear two posts ago.
Well, maybe I'm getting wiser as I'm getting older and realize that the more I say, the more can be understood wrong. After all, I turned 32 today, so it was time that clear moment appeared :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Telling us you could be even wiser that you are? ;)
So, happy birthday, Marco! Live for at least three times longer and stay on the scene for _another_ 32 years! ;)
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Puterman: I separate demos to two kinds: the "arty" demos, like most of your's or Wrath's, and to technical demos from groups like Plush, Crest, Booze, etc. I must say I enjoy the latter ones more, those based on high technical knowledge, and until now haven't found too much of art in them :). That doesn't means I hate conceptual demos, all the more I like them very much, but I never feel them too personal, too close to me, to be honest until now I never felt them getting close to me in any way, at all. Call me crazy, but some vertical rasters could bring up much more weird feelings in my stomack (not because they look so ugly ;)) mostly due to the memories from my childhood (with remembering watching hundreds of those old "scrolls-sprites-and-rasterbar"-demos with a bunch of friends of mine, having some beers and pretzels, reading the contact notes of each other, organising small booze-parties for the local sceners, beeing together all the time... - oh the good ol' days, it was so much fun! :) Everything is gone now. And I always cry it back. Most of you know how I feel.
Whilst yeah, all c64 demos are art in some way :)
And just a few thoughts more about tagging, if you allow me (not that you have a choice ;).
Namely. I must say I didn't got too shocked when I've heard from someone on #c-64 that a picture not tagged equals to a picture wired. I was already accused that I convert my pictures, just because I didn't tagged one on a party. The reason is, when someone converts a picture, a fair deed is not to sign it, and that's a usual and common behaviour of most of those converting, nevertheless it's excepted and most of us got used to it. But then, we'd see credit's like: 1st pic handpixelled by XYZ-1, 2nd pic converted by XYZ-2, 3rd pic copied from Vallejo by XYZ-3 and so on. And then three options could show up: 1. it will give a very false view on the graphician's work for most of the sceners reading the credits, nothing positive but something inbetween, that means a fiver on CSDB :) 2. it will result a 10 because of the converted pictures in the demo, while XYZ-1's picture is crap. 3. not many will notice that XYZ's handpixelled something and show thumb down to the graphician's work. I know it's hilarious, but it's true.
Then again, not giving exact credits (often solved by an upscroller saying "gfx by XYZ-1"), will only give a positive view on the graphician(s) wether 80% of the pictures in the demo were converted or not. There are some outsanding examples, but I don't want to name any, that's not the case. Anyway, what do you think? |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Jailbird: During this discussion I don't think I've seen more than 3 positive arguments in favour of tagging pictures:
1. Tradition.
2. Correct credits.
3. So that people won't think it's wired.
I don't think any of these reasons are very compelling. If you want to follow traditions, that's your problem. If you want correct credits, talk to the person coding/linking the demo, or add the correct credits here. If you want people to believe it's not wired, give them workstages. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
- Not tagging is fine with me, as long as it's not explained by being more professional or less important (although if you feel it's ugly - ok, who am i to judge).
- Giving workstages to those people is quite like convincing my brother's hamsters that I'm not wiring.
- Still there will be dozens of people mixing up credits, and I don't feel like I'll have the time to talk with them all.
- Tradition never was an argument :) |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
jailbird- Oh, and by the way. A bit offtopic. The "ugly" graffity logos are called "bombs", they're mostly not signed because they're made very fastly (usually in two colours), on trains
We call these "panels" and a whole train side is called a "whole car".. why do i post this, dunno but i am pretty sure that everyone who has read this thread is a little more stupider for doing so.. see, stupider isnt even a proper word.. unless youre on jerry springer :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Fade: oh, I mainly meant trowups here, whether they are on trains or somewhere else, just to demonstrate what do I mean by "ugly" pieces :) However, very nice to know about fellow graffity artists on the c64 scene! |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
After reading the above, I really wonder what the fuss is all about. Every graphician has the right to sign or not to sign his/her hard work, as long as the image in question is truthfully the result of their own creativity. Or you spent a hell of a lot of time copying the original - remember, if the original is signed, you have to copy that, too. That's what copying is all about.
I used to sign my pictures and copies but for some reason, I'm now in a phase where a tag is not that relevant to me. My lame images are done for fun, they're freeware, so I don't quite care what happens to them afterwards. All I want is the pleasure of creating them and the joy of seeing them as part of a nice c64 demo.
I have no reason to go commercial with my 'work' (graphics or music), so it's all a little less important. But, as said, this could just be a phase. Who knows, I just might be tempted to get old 'v' out of the closet again in the future... |
