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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
Multispeed tunes
I never composed a multispeed tune because I wonder they use too much rastertime, thus the risk you can't put them in your machinekiller demo goes higher.
Is this right, or I'm producing shit instead of thoughts? Can you ever manage a multispeed tune both with sprites, scrolltexts, dypp, plasmas, bananas, chocolate and a cup of green tea? |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
I guess what matters is that is there a "free" spot without raster-effects somewhere on the visible screen? Or even if there isn't "room" the main program could play the music (at the risk of the musicroutine execution being delayed by raster-effects)
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
Noticed most killer demos only feature single tunes even though the composers are capable of double speed or more? :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
It's down to the sheer rastertime required, an average player will take about $18 rasterlines (these are rough averages) so that's three characters of time gone - double *that* and you're talking about a *substantial* drain on the processing time left for the effects. Stuff like digis and multispeed are too raster heavy unless you plan around them.
From memory, the only time i've heard a doublespeed tune playing all the way through a trackmo was Reflex's "Cafe Odd" but i could be wrong...? =-) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Aren't Jeffs tunes in Deus Ex Machina all multispeed (4x IIRC)? I could be wrong, but I faintly remember having read that on HVSC egroups. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Only the last one. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
Raster time is the main reason sure, but often if the player is not spread out then some sounds bug (ADSR bugs). If you was to play it at the needed raster lines then the effect will be broken up, ie FLI or where more than $80 lines are needed at once or... |
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Fzool
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 11 |
In the Demo "driss" by Smash Designs aeg used a double speed tune by Sonic, thats why the plasma by dcp at the end of the demo is not fullscreen.
greetz, fzool^SaMe^SdS |
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Finn
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 15 |
i only use more speed ..!!! i realy need the frq's and the pulse in more speed for extra quality. but the prob is the gate in the pats .can some one tel wy in more speed the volume bugs if you don use no gate fx and extra gate in pats.is it about timing??and is there an edditor that does not need extra comands to work like they should??
and how about every sound its own speed seting...?? i dont care if it takes too much rastertime to use in other prgs..i try to get the best sounds out the sid.. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
It's mostly player dependentcy. Just keep trying and often not using sustain value of $f helps. There are a number of ADSR problems. Just sit down in front of the editor and test, test, test. |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
Hell, even single-speed tunes eat too much rastertime for my taste..
I want it all muhahaha :)
Raven/64Ever |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Quote: Hell, even single-speed tunes eat too much rastertime for my taste..
I want it all muhahaha :)
Raven/64Ever
Hmm...that brought a perverse idea to mind. A playroutine that would use arpeggiotable for everything: arpeggio, vibrato, slide etc. It'd take quite little rastertime :)
The downsides: the frequency-table would require more resolution than one halftone, it would take a blasphemous amount of memory, and using the routine could be a bit hard... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Hmm...that brought a perverse idea to mind. A playroutine that would use arpeggiotable for everything: arpeggio, vibrato, slide etc. It'd take quite little rastertime :)
The downsides: the frequency-table would require more resolution than one halftone, it would take a blasphemous amount of memory, and using the routine could be a bit hard...
I have no idea what this man just said. None at all.
I'm not even sure I recognize the word 'rastertime' :) |
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6R6
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 244 |
EVS/20cc released a tune like this in 89, the player used 3-4 scanlines and a lot of memory.
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Finn
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 15 |
In some reflex demos pvcf´s tunes where morespeed.
hello
(replying to this old post,trying to get it going again :))
anyway
I my self am totaly diferant from most of musicians on c64
I mostly only use quadro speed!
Mainly coz i make music tobe music and not necessarily for use in other programs.
I would like to see new software be developed that is more flexible when it comes to the use of multi speed and has modern ideas implemented like recording filter slides in the paterns by moving your mouse kind of things ,more raster time for the sounds frq and pulse changes
and such and not only for making music for use in other programs .(but also capable of doing such if you choose though).
The c64 is capable of much more I think when it comes to sounds creation.
Sadly manny people are limited by this litle raster time mentality.
Think big
greetings
Finn/shrine
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: EVS/20cc released a tune like this in 89, the player used 3-4 scanlines and a lot of memory.
Yep! If you download the latest HVSC you can find it as /20CC/van_Santen_Edwin/Revolution.sid.
(Earlier the rip only played part of the tune, while this new rip plays it correct).
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Hehe! 57 blocks for a 47 second loop with rather unexciting sounds! :-) |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Yo Finn,
Heard you tunez - Stampmix.sid w00t! Stampeuh menseuh! :)
Anyway, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It all depends what you're composing for. If you're composing for the sake of the music alone, I'd go for fast multispeed tunes with sample inserts, the way GRG has been doing for some time now (SIDastic.sid anyone?).
However, if your tune is to be part of a demo with *really tight* effects, you couldn't possibly expect anything beyond single or even half speed... I know there are a few multispeed tunes in demos, but they're usually played in parts which are very light on rastertime, like end upscrollers, or simply *simple* parts.
Also, while multispeeding is fun, the challenge to 'emulate' multispeed sounds in single speed is also quite fun. The reason I haven't touched multispeed yet is because I'm still discovering new stuff in single speed... although one can slowly move on.
Final words: there's nothing wrong with either single or multispeed. Compose in function of what you and possibly the coder demand of your tune and everyone's happy. And besides, to a SID enthusiast, it doesn't really matter what speed it is... |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Why people are not using multispeed music in demos is beyond me. Wait, listen and learn. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5020 |
dane: start a new trend :) be a hero ;)
anyways... lately I've made a dot effect with 512 dots, now for sake of design I have added gfx to it, a layer made of 100 sprites (no, there was no other way but sprites), and then AWK it got noticeably SLOWER, then I have added the music, and now my fine fast routine struggles for air... it became about 30% slower than without eye and ear candy... thats why coders dont like multispeed tunes, and design :)
compromises like pvcf's mathemathica II would be the best imho.. as it only has one channel in doublespeed. so the 2nd call to the music eats very little time.
I really would like to have a multispeed tune in my demos, and fli gfx beside each of my effects, but our beloved hardware forces me to make compromises. A good melody is evenly as good in singlespeed, a nice picture can be done in simple koala (sander, valsary). But a slow effect means lame coding... |
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Britelite
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 51 |
Well, we have released atleast 3 productions with 8speed-tunes (Beertime2, last part of My Kondom and Le Phant). And SounDemoN's player doesn't eat too much raster time, actually I think his tunes use less rastertime than the singlespeed DMC5-tunes I've made =) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
So there. Enough multispeed for you, Oswald? :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5020 |
dane: the mentioned demos has very little cpu consuming routines... so its no problem there. |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
lol! You mean Cycle has no cpu-consuming routines? :D (bah, misinterpreted that - ofc you meant the Dekadence demos) |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Some selfish promotion. For multispeed tunes with much variety, check out the "Speed" music collection. :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Tweaking the wavetable and doing a smart pulseprogram can do 'multispeed' in 1x - but most editors only have 1 static pulsetable for each waveprogram..
Improve player! |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 465 |
Tell us more. Switching at 1x speeds sounds crappy mostly anyway. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
When a composition is cool, it doesn't need multiple speed. Multiple speed does add some flavor to a tune, though, just like digis. Why would someone want to make music on a sid if he or she doesn't like chipsound after all?
Think the electronic vibes tickle the brain. |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
approach: just do the tracking in the very first call each frame, then only do the instruments later ... what's your problem? AcidTracker in double-speed uses less than dmc4 ...
Finn: try out AcidTracker ... it's a tool for coders, thus hard to use, but i think it has what you need.
Acid Track Music Development System V3.2 |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
oohh, i forgot: acidtracker in quad-speed uses less rastertime than dmc 5 in double speed ;) |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
and please, ppl, use the tu-ilmenau - link - it's my direct homepage. i forgot to keep up with meikel and mail him all recent updates - sorry for that... |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Nobody has really made good use of multispeed I think, except the pioneers Antony Crowther and Michael Winterberg.
8x + is overkill, or at least nobody can use it properly.
What you need to use, is waveform envelope, pulse envelope, filter envelope. etc.
Much more can be made!
As of now, the speed is only used on waveforms.
Go try it!
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Those Winterberg sids do sound very interesting. Never knew those were multispeed sids. Very spacy sounds.
IMAO other multispeed sids sound very cool aswell. :)
Maybe I should tattoo my butt with some Lao Tseish words, so I have a wise ass. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
I don't know anything about the technicalities of music players (waveforms etc.) but drums certainly sound kewler to me in multispeed, e.g. Rubicon/JT.
I think Jeff once said the problem with multispeed (aside from eating more rastertime) is that it takes longer to make the instruments, since you have to type in 2/4/8/etc. times more data for each instrument. But how about generating the instruments from some parameters? Has anybody thought of that? I mean, the data must follow some kind of logical pattern I guess. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 716 |
How lame!! Of course you have to edit 2/4/8 times as much data for the instruments, but it's not that much anyway. Just think about the gfx-painters. They don't complain about IFLI, even though it's twice as many pixels as normal FLI. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Erm.. I would complain about the flickering. Which I compare to the incredibly fast 2-8 speed arpegios I dont like that much. Its like listening to my neighbour playing Turkish March by Mozart in a high tempo, so he can watch Power Rangers soon. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Lazyness is not lame - it's the mother of all inventions. :) |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
HCL: the thing with mspeed instruments is that with the increased size of the waveform tables (not mandatory, though) come more possibilities, and it's quite a lot of work to tune the instruments to eachother. We haven't even begun to touch the true possibilities of mspeed SID music. Changing instruments also often requires quite a bit of lateral thinking. It's not so much laziness but the sheer complexity of it all and finding soundsets which are fresh and working.
And more artists have done some nice/interesting mspeed tunes like Jeff, GRG, Praiser, Tel, Shogoon and Daf.
Hein: 1speed is funky, but the added depth of mspeed can give your tunes more oompf while preserving the fact that it still is the true SID sound. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
True. Maybe 1 speed is like a koala picture, 2speed like fli and so on. Like stated above. It's sometimes a challenge to deal with koala restrictions, just like it is with single speed tunes. I've just begun with sid exploration, and starting to learn the benefits of 2 speed. Especially percussion sounds have limitless possibilities in multispeed. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
Right. Check Taki's "Impulse" and get blown away by the snare sound. It is x16, though. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Cruzer: Yes, let's invent singlespeed tunes! :) |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
multispeed from 4x up allows to create combined drums - like the combined bassdrum&snare we all always wanted ;) ... but my last tries kinda still made it sound weird ... it's the fucken phase-restart the SID doeas after changing the waveform, that kills this idea ... maybe I'll still release something like this some time ;)
and reinventing some new wheel always roxxx |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
@Cruzer: I never said it was a problem, but nowadays I usually don't do more than 4-speed tunes. For some things 8-speed is good, but usually I'd say that 4-speed is enough for most kind of sounds.
And you can do multispeed tunes that don't take too much rastertime. The most important things to run in multispeed is waves & frequencies. Just like Dane did in "Cycle". However you can do quite "real-synth"-like sounds if you run pulse in multispeed aswell, as it will sound more smooth. There are always tricks to make people go "WOW!!!", but usual nothing that requires a lot. :-) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
In the music for Cycle, voice 1 has 4x pulse. Voice 2 and 3 has the option of 4x wave+freq - but there are also some singlespeed instruments in there. All in all the limitations were quite funny to work with.
Vibratos and slides etc are of course in singlespeed.
And rastertime...about 20 lines altogether. Decimal. :) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
That's the charm about doing players.... customizing them for your needs. My latest customized player takes 3 rasterlines, but is also very limited - still you can do nice things with it.
Dane: Thumbs up! ;-)
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
You know, this is slowly convincing me to the OMA side again... =)
*looks at words like flip-flopper being swung at him... gah* |
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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
Quote: In the music for Cycle, voice 1 has 4x pulse. Voice 2 and 3 has the option of 4x wave+freq - but there are also some singlespeed instruments in there. All in all the limitations were quite funny to work with.
Vibratos and slides etc are of course in singlespeed.
And rastertime...about 20 lines altogether. Decimal. :)
What? That music takes $14 only?
Quite impressive... :O |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 716 |
Very few players are optimised for speed, but usually it doesn't matter. In this case it really did matter since the player was used in 4-speed. So you see there's alot that you can do out of a standard player :). |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 351 |
I sometime ago samples sid sounds with the pc to look, how
the sid reacts, if you suddenly change parameters.
i think there are endless possibilities to improve the sound, if one uses a timer to change the parameters in the right phase, so that unwanted sounds does not occur.
2nd.: there could be a possibility to add sin sounds to the sid waveforms, if one uses filters. with some resonance/freq combinations, the waveform gets very(!) sinlike.
the problem is, that vic and sid doesn't have anything in common and that timing the sid will fuck up vic timing and vice versa. but perhaps it is possible to call the music not exactly every frame, but phase aline it. this means, that every frame, the moment of the call is shifted in the order of some period times of the waves, so that the sound is cleaner.
Monte Carlos
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Quote: What? That music takes $14 only?
Quite impressive... :O
Blame HCL. I wanted to have more stuff in it, but he is such a Basic haxxor and couldn't optimize routines. :D |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 716 |
@Dane: Thanx, you're my best friend too ;). |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Monte Carlos: Talk is cheap, code is expensive. And the exchange rates seem to be rising all the time. |
