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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Release id #30789 : Timanthes
Starting a new thread so i can answer any questions about the program without polluting the comments thread.
I've already added some trivia-notes about it being a beta version, and not everything working properly yet, but it should be enough for people who just want to make koala/fli/afli/hires pictures :)
So, bring on the complaints :) |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
It doesnt make coffee!
Goddam it!
:) Seriously tho, any chance of a linux port?
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
very nice, looks like my raydomat thing on steroids :=P to bad my artistic skills are below sea level so i'm still stuck with plain conversions :) |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
I don't know how exactly Mono works, but it could make producing a Unix version of this quite simple. BTW, since you're basing this on a open-source project (Paint.NET) ya really ought to release yer own source. The MIT/X11 license doesn't force you to do this the way the GPL does (a drawback of the MIT/X11 license IMHO) but it would still be the right thing to do. That way somebody else could try a Linux/Mono/DotGNU compile even if you're not interested.
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above. |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
congratulations mirage for a good software. Especially the pixeling algorithms are interesting.
I could not find a move_layer operation there. What I intended to do was emulate working on an ifli picture. one background layer + two fli layers. the second fli layer being 50% transparent and moved one pixel to the right. if there is no move layer operation, then I would like to request this feature so that working on various interlace modes will be (kind of) possible.
regards |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
I don't see why this is so spectacular? It looks like gimp, of course this is coming from a nub who uses drazpaint. |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Quote: I don't see why this is so spectacular? It looks like gimp, of course this is coming from a nub who uses drazpaint.
Paint.NET (The source base of this program) is more like Paint Shop Pro than the GIMP. That said, the thing that makes this spectacular is that it's a full, modern Paint Shop Pro/Photoshop/gimp-style program with BUILT-IN support for all the various things needed to pixel for C64. Add in the fact that it has some of the best conversion fuctions ever and you've got a pretty good reason to find this special.
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I managed to get it down (the "red cross" error) quite a lot of times without the ability to save my work (XP - .Net 2.0 here). That happened mostly when painting on several new layers. Or, even if I somehow managed to save my work, I was unable to load it again.
Otherwise, a lovely application! I especially adore the color clash detection! :D
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
I am impressed with the color matching and dithering on this program. Good work |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Quote: I don't know how exactly Mono works, but it could make producing a Unix version of this quite simple. BTW, since you're basing this on a open-source project (Paint.NET) ya really ought to release yer own source. The MIT/X11 license doesn't force you to do this the way the GPL does (a drawback of the MIT/X11 license IMHO) but it would still be the right thing to do. That way somebody else could try a Linux/Mono/DotGNU compile even if you're not interested.
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above.
I've just taken a closer look at Mono, and from what I can see it may be possible if Mirage used the dotNet API and not the Win32 API. The Win32 API (Windows.Forms) is not yet implemented in Mono, although they're working on it.
Porting a Winblargh application to any other system usually proves to be quite a hardship as most Win-programmers are totally ignoring any portability and open standards (I'm not saying Mirage is). This usually means that type sizes are assumed to be fixed (ie. char is an octet, int is 32-bit) and endianess is always little, while for portability and standards-compliance you can't assume any of that.
Porting *nix applications usually proves to be much easier, as most programmers try to keep their applications as portable as possible (keeping standard and system-specific code in seperate translation units).
Anyway, I have some serious doubts when it comes to porting Timanthes to other platforms.
I'd try if only the Paint.Net source would be available for download (the server hosting it somehow craps out on me, or runs at about 0.4Kb/s).
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
I specially downloaded the latest .NET Framework to run this and the stupid MSI install file says that it won't work without Framework 1.1. As I don't have another 1.5 hours to get yet another version of m$ bloatware, can anybody help me with a method to install using Framework 2.0. IMHO using MSI deserves points off. A simple ZIP file woulda been better.
My windoze partition has Win2k SP4 on it btw.
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Quote: I don't know how exactly Mono works, but it could make producing a Unix version of this quite simple. BTW, since you're basing this on a open-source project (Paint.NET) ya really ought to release yer own source. The MIT/X11 license doesn't force you to do this the way the GPL does (a drawback of the MIT/X11 license IMHO) but it would still be the right thing to do. That way somebody else could try a Linux/Mono/DotGNU compile even if you're not interested.
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above.
I am planning on releasing the source-code, I just have to clean that up somewhat first :)
Also, I will probably set up an internet-based CVS/sourcesafe system so other people can start working on it together with me, if they want |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Quote: I managed to get it down (the "red cross" error) quite a lot of times without the ability to save my work (XP - .Net 2.0 here). That happened mostly when painting on several new layers. Or, even if I somehow managed to save my work, I was unable to load it again.
Otherwise, a lovely application! I especially adore the color clash detection! :D
That's the first bug I intend to eliminate... might be a bit hard though... i think it's partially GDI+'s fault not handling changes in windows-focus, seems to be dependend on other programs taking focus for a second and then giving it back (a lot of programs do this... winamp, instant messengers and a LOT more) |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Quote: congratulations mirage for a good software. Especially the pixeling algorithms are interesting.
I could not find a move_layer operation there. What I intended to do was emulate working on an ifli picture. one background layer + two fli layers. the second fli layer being 50% transparent and moved one pixel to the right. if there is no move layer operation, then I would like to request this feature so that working on various interlace modes will be (kind of) possible.
regards
Krill also suggested exactly this. His idea was to have a list of $d016 offsets for each line, so you can do even more stuff than just move the entire screen 1 pixel. This will hopefully be in the next version :) |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Quote: I specially downloaded the latest .NET Framework to run this and the stupid MSI install file says that it won't work without Framework 1.1. As I don't have another 1.5 hours to get yet another version of m$ bloatware, can anybody help me with a method to install using Framework 2.0. IMHO using MSI deserves points off. A simple ZIP file woulda been better.
My windoze partition has Win2k SP4 on it btw.
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above.
I thought people would like an install program better, but i can ofcourse change this. most of the registry settings are reset by the program and not by the installer... next release will be a simple zip file then |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Mirage,
As I noticed Paint.net uses an ugly hack, maybe this is complete crap, but might be in connection with the red cross error.
The hack is that child windows cannot be made always on top, so Paint.Net's tool windows are not real child windows of the main one, but they try pretend to be. This doesnt always works, as sometimes you can drag the fake child windows outside the main window, sometimes you can not (and the latter is intended) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
@Mirage:Worked great for me.
I didn´t have this .NET stuff,but after 3 minutes I was playing with your excellent program! 8D
Duimpjes omhoog! ;)
Using XP btw.. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Oswald, that's a possibility, i'll keep it in mind when I go bug-hunting :) Just have to find a way to trigger that bug on command, i can't just start painting and wait 5 minutes for something to happen :(
Oh, and everybody else, thanks for the nice comments about the program although it has it's flaws :) |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Quote: I am planning on releasing the source-code, I just have to clean that up somewhat first :)
Also, I will probably set up an internet-based CVS/sourcesafe system so other people can start working on it together with me, if they want
Great! I just discovered Monodevelop has an 'import Visual Studio project' option/wizard, I'm curious to see how (horrible) that'll work out ;)
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quote: I am planning on releasing the source-code, I just have to clean that up somewhat first :)
Also, I will probably set up an internet-based CVS/sourcesafe system so other people can start working on it together with me, if they want
Dont you mean subversion??
:)
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I was testing Timanthes with my tablet today. Except getting it down a few times (the layer-bug, fix it ASAP Mirage! :D ), I can't express by words how lovely the experience was :D WOW!
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
jailbird: glad you liked it :) (and it's not a layer bug... it's a WM_PAINT message that's screwing everything up... close to nailing down that bug)
Care to post some of your experimental wacom pictures? :)
Oh, btw... i did some wacom pictures myself and i was constantly changing colours with the shortcut-keys (0-9, a-f) and switching from brush to pen ('.', p)... maybe useful for you aswell :)
I also noticed i will have to program shortcut-keys for dithered/non-dithered brushes and a couple of more things... all on my list for version 2.4 |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Another bit of info i forgot to mention... when using the rectangular selection tool, if you press shift it will constrain to a 320x200 ratio... after that you can resize more easily to a 320x200 picture for converting (it'll be off by 1 pixel sometimes, but you can switch off the constrain ratio checkbox when you're in the resize dialog box and it'll still convert to 320x200)
There's probably loads more I forgot to mention in the help files, so i'll just keep updating those files and post updates here :)
Edit: when you're in double pixel restrict mode, you'll have to use the 25% dither brush to act as a 50% dither brush (curious as to why nobody has mentioned this yet ;) |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Another update...
When you're using a pattern brush with one solid c64 colour and one transparent colour you can switch the behaviour of the transparent colour with the 'toggle alpha colour' button on the toolbar... it will either use the pixels that are on the layer you're painting on or paint them transparent (and thus showing the background colour)
toggle alpha blending on:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lars.verhoeff/togglealphablendingo..
toggle alpha blending off:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lars.verhoeff/togglealphablendingo.. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: jailbird: glad you liked it :) (and it's not a layer bug... it's a WM_PAINT message that's screwing everything up... close to nailing down that bug)
Care to post some of your experimental wacom pictures? :)
Oh, btw... i did some wacom pictures myself and i was constantly changing colours with the shortcut-keys (0-9, a-f) and switching from brush to pen ('.', p)... maybe useful for you aswell :)
I also noticed i will have to program shortcut-keys for dithered/non-dithered brushes and a couple of more things... all on my list for version 2.4
To post my experiental pictures? I care, but I don't dare ;)
No, actually I was really just playing - got my tablet few days ago, so I didn't saved anything, except for some outlines I'd like to use in the future. I promise I'll show you if I make something worth to share. :D |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Can anybody ZIP up a pre-installed copy for me or tell me how to make the installer work with only .NET 2.0 (no 1.1) installed? I still want to try this program...
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Tried to make my Timanthes images work on Sanders install yesterday, and it didn't work at all. The program did run, both running his install aswell as the one I have installed on my MMC-card, although none of them wanted to recognize the Timanthes file.
Any explanations for this strange behaviour? I'm running the version prior to the official release at home, since the installer refuses to acknowledge that Dotnet is installed, and thus refuses to install itself. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
2Flower: Sander's system is just corrupt. Kill it.
Seriously, I noticed that after the .net installation I had a new user, so maybe it has something to do with rights? Just throwing shit against a wall here, ofcourse .. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
madcrow/2flower:
The download link now points to a non-installer version, hope that works :)
2flower: keep the old version, save your old images as .bmp files and import those into the new version and then turn them into proper restricted images again |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Gimme source!
I really need to look at the code and complain about 'non-ISO' stuff, just to feel good about myself :)
Bas |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 359 |
I recently made my first experience with timanthes an i was very impressed. but soon i got stuck at the first problem,
that when i use a sprite layer it always turns ferrari red.
this color indicates clashes and i dont't understand how a sprite layer with a single color can show clashes?
What did i do wrong?
I made a new layer, than turned on the restricted button and then i choosed sprite layer single color.
Greetz Monte
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
sprite layers aren't fully supported yet, sorry :/ |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 359 |
Ok, sorry i thought so. Sneev.
Monte
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Bah, posted this info in the wrong thread... Here goes again:
When you output a .prg it will be stored like this:
koala/hires-multicolour:
------------------------
pic - $2000-$3f40
charmem - $3f40-$4328
colourmem - $4328-$4710
FLI:
----
'FLIgraph2.2/Black Mail' editor format
art-studio/hires-singlecolour:
------------------------------
pic - $2000-$3f40
charmem - $4000-43e8
AFLI every two lines (half working UFLI mode)
---------------------------------------------
pic - $6000-$7f40
charmems - $5000-$6000
I don't think anybody will be using any other mode, so i'll leave it with this
I intend to supply viewers and examples with the next version |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Will the next version be able to generate self-displaying images a la Congo? That would be really nice for those of us who's assembly skills are low...
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above. |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
And while you're at it, add an option to include a random tune from HVSC in the display routine :)
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Quote: And while you're at it, add an option to include a random tune from HVSC in the display routine :)
yeah.. Only viewable in VICE. :) |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 478 |
Quote: Bah, posted this info in the wrong thread... Here goes again:
When you output a .prg it will be stored like this:
koala/hires-multicolour:
------------------------
pic - $2000-$3f40
charmem - $3f40-$4328
colourmem - $4328-$4710
FLI:
----
'FLIgraph2.2/Black Mail' editor format
art-studio/hires-singlecolour:
------------------------------
pic - $2000-$3f40
charmem - $4000-43e8
AFLI every two lines (half working UFLI mode)
---------------------------------------------
pic - $6000-$7f40
charmems - $5000-$6000
I don't think anybody will be using any other mode, so i'll leave it with this
I intend to supply viewers and examples with the next version
In the help file also AFLI- and hires-pix are said to be exportable. As there is no Background colour in hires (and thus also in AFLI) I'm wondering how to properly export pictures of that kind. Tried it with and without a second layer, but it all didn't work :(( Maybe it's still not included in the current beta?!?!??
Copyfault |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Add background layer, make it backgroundcolor. Add transparency to the color in the second layer, as usual. Or just save it out as .png and run it through Congo. |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 478 |
I tried it that way (2nd layer, filled with bgr_col, recolored the other layer (bgr -> transparent col)). As soon as I want to save it to a prg-file, Timanthes tells me something about "incorrect layer settings for c64 export" or so :/ Seems clear to me, as there is no background-colour-info in hires mode...
but how can the layers be set up "hires-mode-friendly" ?
Maybe saving to .png-format an then using Congo is a good idea! Thanks!
CF |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Quote: Add background layer, make it backgroundcolor. Add transparency to the color in the second layer, as usual. Or just save it out as .png and run it through Congo.
No... the proper setup is 2 layers with the following settings;
- 1st layer (can be anything, even non-restricted)
- 2nd layer with restriction AFLI or hires singlecolor
(don't make anything transparent, that's impossible in those modes anyway)
(i.e. you won't see anything of the first layer after you've switched on hires-sc/AFLI restrictions)
Timanthes only exports data that is in the second layer, so it needs a first layer (even if the restriction mode doesn't really need one)
Hope that helps you keep clear from using congo ;P |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 478 |
Hmm, does not seem to be really stable :/ I managed to save some AFLI-data (still have to check the output), but just as I thought I understood how Timanthes wants the layers to be set... I failed :(( I was not able to recreate a setting that allows me to export to a C64-file. And I really followed your advice, Mirage...
Maybe my version is not ok...
...how long do we have to wait for "an update" ;) ? |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
It's really not that difficult, you just have to make sure the layer with the bitmap data is always the second layer... what ever restriction mode you want to use.
And about the not being stable: i fixed the GDI+ bug about two weeks ago (this was the bug that was crashing the program 8 out of 10 times) and i'm cleaning up some more before I put out beta 2 which will be a LOT more stable and user-friendly. |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 478 |
Nice to hear about a new beta coming up *freu* Will this one already include code fragments of viewers for the c64 as mentioned some days/weeks ago?
Speaking of viewers: a really nice feature would be a "code layer", giving some kind of interface to the cycles within every rasterline. I am thinking of a grid consisting of 63x312 cells (maybe less, as not every rasterline is necessarily concerned with gfx) where it should be possible to assign opcodes to the cells. Thus, not only custom values for x-shift in every line would be possible (as Krill suggested), but also the other VIC-regs could be changed (open sideborder etc.) Most probably this is far to complicated to do - can't tell, as I never did any paint.net-stuff nor other serious projects on PC.
Just wanted to share my ideas which came up when using Timanthes...
CF |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Somebody asked me how FLI was exported today on IRC (Quasar?) but left before i could answer... here it is:
FLI:
----
'FLIgraph2.2/Black Mail' editor format
$3b00-$3c00 - $d021/opcode colours
$3c00-$4000 - colourmem ($d800)
$4000-$6000 - charmem
$6000-$8000 - bitmap
the $3b00 bytes are built up like this:
lownybble - $d021 colours
highnybble - opcode colours
opcode colours are used to colour the extra colour in the 3 char-fli-bug area on the left... (most FLI pictures don't use this and it's too technical to explain here, anyway :))
Hope this helps other people aswell |
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145 |
Yes, was me, thx!! Helps me a lot, since AAY64 seems to have some bugs left there (poking Ninjas lazy ass... ;) ) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
char mem aka screen mem :)
btw opcode color goes into d800 pixels ? |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
@oswald: The $d800 color of the FLI-bug area is indeed controlled by the opcode following directly after the $d011 write. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
mmmh trying to make this work in wine, and as often, the msi installer thingy craps out... could you add a plain "standalone" version too ? |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
@gp: when u get it to work, tell me how u did it plz. Same goes for Grahams' warpcopy... (not that he uses msi, but the app is stubborn anyways) |
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
Quote: @gp: when u get it to work, tell me how u did it plz. Same goes for Grahams' warpcopy... (not that he uses msi, but the app is stubborn anyways)
warpcopy has just worked in wine for over a year now, for me (i just apt-get install wine on ym laptop, and run wine ./warpcopy.exe) with one caveat: the squares in the track/sector display are not squares, but dots. But no matter.
Neither Timanthes or P1 work for me though... have to vmware to run those - P1 is close, though, and I actually know _why_ that fails and how to fix it. I may yet patch wine after I get some free time.
EDIT: the big thing with warpcopy, is it uses directx for the display, and so you need to make sure that you don't have an old wine config around where you set desktop depth to something other than display depth, because that will break warpcopy
--j |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
P1 works for me (wine 0.9.22), didnt work in previous versions. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: warpcopy has just worked in wine for over a year now, for me (i just apt-get install wine on ym laptop, and run wine ./warpcopy.exe) with one caveat: the squares in the track/sector display are not squares, but dots. But no matter.
Neither Timanthes or P1 work for me though... have to vmware to run those - P1 is close, though, and I actually know _why_ that fails and how to fix it. I may yet patch wine after I get some free time.
EDIT: the big thing with warpcopy, is it uses directx for the display, and so you need to make sure that you don't have an old wine config around where you set desktop depth to something other than display depth, because that will break warpcopy
--j
Ahh ok, maybe that's why it doesn't work for me then. I've a rather OLD version of Wine installed. The one that shipped with Mandrake 9.2. ;) |
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Hend
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 6 |
I have an 'application failed to initialise properly' error as soon as try to run this program.. :(
I may have missed something (alot even ;)) in this thread, but I would really like to have a go with the software, any ideas? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: I have an 'application failed to initialise properly' error as soon as try to run this program.. :(
I may have missed something (alot even ;)) in this thread, but I would really like to have a go with the software, any ideas?
Got the same error all the time on my old amd/nvidia machine and hmm, now it works well on the intel/ati combo. I'm not sure if it's the hardware causing the problem, though.
Edit: oh wait, that wasn't this same error yet frequent nasty crashes while working with the program. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
This preview of timanthes 3.0 is for Bizzmo, mostly:
Look! A new window :) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
the preview window is a thing of great beauty! |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
Dribble...
I'm stunned! Now you're not going to tell me this is just a mock-up now are you? As someone said that you weren't actually working on Timanthes at the moment... |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
Oh, and while I remember, you did include the pal-emulation mode for the preview window? |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Bah, never satisfied ;)
I'm working on the pal emulation as we speak... it's just a blur at the moment, but you get the idea:
Sander suggested having the option of having a dycp in that preview window, but i won't go _that_ far |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Timanthes - The ultimate demo maker. Now with DYCP generator! :D |
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 186 |
so when will the living get their hands on this gfx app? |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Shouldn't be long now... only a couple of things need finishing...
1. proper octree quantization for other palettes (dtv/plus4/c128/whateveryouwant)
2. preview window still doesn't update when an animation is played.
3. dtv raw export still needs an executable (packing so it fits into 64k is done)
give it another couple of weeks (I know i really shouldn't post previews, but Bizzmo/Deev/others have been bugging me for that preview window for ages and i just wanted to show them i finally gave in ;) |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
Bugging? I call it "encouragement"... |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Right, and almost 1 year without new Bizzmo gfx, he really NEEDS a preview window. Snif. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
I still miss the auto-draw-one-pixel-nipples-option. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
I want an option that emulates those bad conversions from the "Neue Deutsche Lamer Welle" !
Would be really neat. |
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Bizzmo
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 82 |
Quote: Right, and almost 1 year without new Bizzmo gfx, he really NEEDS a preview window. Snif.
It's not that long is it? Damn! |
