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2008-01-20 18:58

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Release id #5065 : More Than NOPs

a) this one is called (and spelled) "More than NOPs". (look at digi part).
b) this is not a taboo release

whoever insists on changing it back to whatever else, just dont.

kthxbye

2008-01-20 19:03

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

in the note it says "More Than NOPs" and the correct English spelling is Than uppercase.

2008-01-20 19:12

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=re..

2008-01-20 19:21

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

alright dude,I'm really impressed that you're referring me to an english-german dictionary (rotfl), the thing you've apparently forgotten is that we're talking about TITLES. And they're generally spelt uppercase in English with a few exceptions,but i'm really sorry to inform you that the word "than" doesn't belong to them.

and finally: please refer to http://taboo.eu.org/download/index.html

it explicitly states that More Than NOPs was the first release of the group Taboo.

now please roll the entry back to what it was before. kthxbye.

2008-01-20 19:27

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

the demo was released before they called themselves taboo, and the title of the demo is "More than NOPs", as stated in the demo.

wether they retroactivly think its a taboo demo, or wether the spelling is technically incorrect, is irrelevant.

2008-01-20 19:33

wreg
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0204667/
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/04/26/usint13268.htm

but a more general thing is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization#Headings_and_public..

2008-01-20 19:38

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

<Post edited by chatGPZ on 20/1-2008 20:40>

Quote:

but a more general thing is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization#Headings_and_public..

good, so basically you can invent your own style, and there arent really any distinct rules at all eh? (and the most common one among publishers _is_ "sentence style", just like i thought) =D

i say ISO style then, seems most sane anyway :=P

2008-01-20 19:39

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

you dont know the background behind taboo at all yet feel competent enough to have the final word and decide whether the authors of a productions think retroactively or not (LOL!!! how on earth can you know that?). read once again what comankh wrote in the comments.

as for the title , i told you that:

1. the note states that the demo is called "More Than NOPs"
2. their official website backs it up
3. it's the correct English spelling (look at how they do it in GB64 and HVSC for example)

and you still believe that 1 alternative spelling is more important that these 3 valid reasons.

with knowing-better-than-everyone moderators like you, this database will just degrade.

2008-01-20 19:41

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

it degrades more by deliberatly adding links which will no more work in a week or two.

2008-01-20 19:52

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

Quote: it degrades more by deliberatly adding links which will no more work in a week or two.

you can't even stick to the topic and respond with sense. I won't go into a discussion with you about anything that doesnt pertain to More Than NOPs. So your attempts to go offtopic and cover your incompetence with a shallow sarcasm are futile. If you have something to say about me "deliberatly adding links which will no more work in a week or two" then please start another topic or use PM otherwise just remain silent because it doesn't relate in any way to what i wrote in my previous post.

2008-01-20 20:09

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

you dont know the background behind taboo at all yet feel competent enough to have the final word and decide whether the authors of a productions think retroactively or not (LOL!!! how on earth can you know that?). read once again what comankh wrote in the comments.

are you one of the taboo guys? do you think for example Art Bizzare should be credited to smash designs, because it was made by smash designs and not haujobb? should Europe +4 be credited to crest? <insert list of other demos with "wrong" credits>

no, what matters is what the actual production states. the rest is trivia info. if i call myself and my friend the mighty wankerboys but don't state it in my production, it's not a mighty wankerboys release. we'd have to "fix" a lot of stuff if that would be the case.

Quote:

1. the note states that the demo is called "More Than NOPs"

yes, the production states otherwise.

Quote:

2. their official website backs it up

this may, or may not be relevant. the production states differently still. they can correct their spelling mistake all they want.

Quote:

3. it's the correct English spelling (look at how they do it in GB64 and HVSC for example)

if you had bothered to check the link wreg posted you might have noticed that infact there is no "correct" english spelling. and that the most common one among publishers infact is "sentence style". it's however irrelevant, the only thing that matters is how it is spelled in the production. if the production would incorrectly spell it "more then nops", that would be the title. anything else is trivia information.

Quote:

with knowing-better-than-everyone moderators like you, this database will just degrade.

would it make you feel worse if i told you that infact another moderator (one who probably has more insight to the demoscene than most people because of his massive swapping activities back in the days) changed it back to "More than NOPs" before you could "fix" it?

2008-01-20 20:53

wreg
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679

could you please stop knitpicking!

it doesnt really matter how it is written here in the db!

could we just be grateful to that aka field i just filled as long as this is kinda 'unsolved'??

anyway, we shouldn't add releases as they were titled anyway, especially on cracks we do not want this, because you would be unable to find anything if you just copied 'mistakes'/whatever done by the crackers :)

2008-01-20 20:57

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

1. "More Than NOPs" is a title! It's not a sentence. Learn the difference and as soon as you have done it you will understand that "sentence style" is irrelevent here anyway. look at how they do it in Imdb, in gb64, in hvsc - its always "Than" uppercase unless explicitly and what is even more important *unambiguously* stated otherwise. If in doubt the correct English spelling is always used (if someone from gb64 or hvsc could confirm it please do so).

2.The note is a part of the production and contains valid and accurate info about the production! It's as much as important as what's written in the demo. If the demo stated that the code was done by MSS and the note said it was MMS then i can assume that you would create a new handle "MSS"? God forbid that anyone makes a typo in a demo!

3. So what we have here is 2 valid and equally reliable sources (the note and the demo). Therefore it's a doubtful situation. But the general rules of spelling English titles favours the former. And what is crucial, an additional direct source confirms the former to be correct. Sorry, it's 3:1 to Than.

4. about the examples you have brought up. they are not fitting here because they explicitly state that haujobb and tough released these productions. situation here is completely different because the authors themselves acknowledge that this is a Taboo release! and comankh confirms this! for gods sake, this is 2 people directly responsible for the production + a witness stating the obvious and you still cant accept it.

5. there are 100s of productions having no info about groups that released them ( how many pictures for instance have this kind of info ? ) OK you might argue that a demo is a different category than a picture but if theres no info in the demo about the name of the group that released it then you should trust the authors.

2008-01-20 20:58

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

put the "correct" spelling into "aka" then. IMHO "we" have no right whatsoever to correct "mistakes" like this.

Quote:

If in doubt the correct English spelling is always used

why dont you check the link wreg posted, and which i repeated? there is no single "correct" spelling for titles.

2008-01-20 21:06

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Quote: could you please stop knitpicking!

it doesnt really matter how it is written here in the db!

could we just be grateful to that aka field i just filled as long as this is kinda 'unsolved'??

anyway, we shouldn't add releases as they were titled anyway, especially on cracks we do not want this, because you would be unable to find anything if you just copied 'mistakes'/whatever done by the crackers :)

Wow .. danger, Will Robinson! Please do not try to handle cracks & demos in the same way.

Furthermore I do agree with Groepaz: please don't try to correct spelling mistakes. For example, Bigger Than Life - The Return should not be called Bigger Than Life, and all those releases with the word rythm in them should keep their (faulty) name as well.

2008-01-20 21:11

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

wreg: its pretty important to sort it out. This situation shows how much Groepaz feels that being in charge entitles him to put the word of authors in doubt. About the group, he's in a totally lost position i reckon.

About the title:I have given 2 specific valid reasons why a more common and correct title should be used, he gave 1.

The Dark Judge: thank your for your input but unless you come up with a production that has an ambiguous title (which means 2 titles used, one being misspelt, the other not) i'm afraid you're offtopicking here.

2008-01-20 21:14

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Quote: wreg: its pretty important to sort it out. This situation shows how much Groepaz feels that being in charge entitles him to put the word of authors in doubt. About the group, he's in a totally lost position i reckon.

About the title:I have given 2 specific valid reasons why a more common and correct title should be used, he gave 1.

The Dark Judge: thank your for your input but unless you come up with a production that has an ambiguous title (which means 2 titles used, one being misspelt, the other not) i'm afraid you're offtopicking here.

Sorry dude, but I was reacting to something wreg said:

Quoting wreg

anyway, we shouldn't add releases as they were titled anyway

He said that as part of the discussion, I disagree with him. Hence, I don't feel I'm offtopic.

Well, now I am but still ;)

2008-01-20 21:17

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

wreg: its pretty important to sort it out. This situation shows how much Groepaz feels that being in charge entitles him to put the word of authors in doubt. About the group, he's in a totally lost position i reckon.

i say it again, the only thing that matters is the disc with the production. does the note say they made a spelling mistake in the demo? that could convince me. other than that, why would i favour whats written in the note over whats written in the production itself?

2008-01-20 21:17

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

Quote: Sorry dude, but I was reacting to something wreg said:

Quoting wreg
anyway, we shouldn't add releases as they were titled anyway

He said that as part of the discussion, I disagree with him. Hence, I don't feel I'm offtopic.

Well, now I am but still ;)

Well I must have misunderstood you then and I apologize but it would have helped if you had written "I do agree with wreg" instead of "I do agree with groepaz".

2008-01-20 21:21

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Quote: Well I must have misunderstood you then and I apologize but it would have helped if you had written "I do agree with wreg" instead of "I do agree with groepaz".

Well, I do agree with Groepaz about not correcting spelling mistakes and I don't agree with wreg about handling games & demos the same way and y'all make my head hurt.

2008-01-20 21:24

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

<Post edited by chatGPZ on 20/1-2008 22:28>

we probably also shouldnt correct all the credits for the entries radar created and not bother with looking at the actual productions at all. afterall he is one of the "authors" and must know it better than anyone else. (now does THAT make your head hurt ? =D)

or in more serious words: it doesnt matter when KM and MMS considered themselves as beeing "taboo". what matters is when "taboo" released their first production, which _states_ beeing a "taboo" release. this is similar to 1001 claiming to have made the first open border scroller, although they didnt make the first release. it doesnt matter when they made it, what matters is when they released it.

2008-01-20 21:26

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

Quote:

i say it again, the only thing that matters is the disc with the production. does the note say they made a spelling mistake in the demo? that could convince me. other than that, why would i favour whats written in the note over whats written in the production itself?

then I'll repeat it again: the note is a part of the production. speaking of importance spelling in the demo is the same as spelling in the note! they both are assumed to contain valid and accurate information about the demo and I'm not arguing if one is more important than another, it's you who keeps doing it here all along.

BUT: given that the authors themselves state that the title is "More Than NOPs" there are more valid reasons to say "More Than NOPs" is a correct (or at least more commonly used!) title.

2008-01-20 21:53

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

to make things clear because Groepaz is twisting my words: I'm not in favour of giving the authors the deciding word in all circumstances. in the situation here the spelling of the title is ambiguous because it varies in 2 occurences.

Groepaz:
Following your way of thinking we should remove 100s of groups from gfx or msx entries where no group is mentioned (including your picture). As i said:

Quote:

the authors themselves acknowledge that this is a Taboo release. and comankh confirms this. for gods sake, this is 2 people directly responsible for the production + a witness stating the obvious and you still cant accept it.

2008-01-20 22:22

assiduous
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343

sorry for triple posting but i dug up a little bit further and have found this:

Quote:

Here's our first demo made by only 2 coders and no graphicians at all! Its name is More Than NOPs - it'd been coded since December 1991 and has been released on the party in Warsaw on March 1992. However the graphic was very poor, the whole product was not so bad - there was two nice games (!) in the demo and a quite good zooming routine (you can see on the right). To be honest, More Than NOPs was not even a real Taboo product as our group "was born" a few weeks after releasing this demo but surely it has helped us to enter the scene and forced to produce another demos with better graphic and design...

which sounds like a *GOOD* reason why Taboo shouldn't be credited. note the double occurence of "Than" though so looks like they're pretty sure about this (and aware of capitalization rules as they correctly spell "Place in the Space" aswell)

all in all I think we can agree on this:

1.released by KM and MMS
2.The title "More Than NOPs" with an AKA title "More than NOPs"

2008-01-21 00:08

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

in the situation here the spelling of the title is ambiguous because it varies in 2 occurences.

i agree. however _i_ would personally prefer what is said in the actual production in this case. even more so if the note does NOT say something like "ooops we spelled it wrong in the demo and didnt have time to repack" etc blabla (this happened sometimes, quite often with cracks =P)

Quote:

all in all I think we can agree on this:

1.released by KM and MMS
2.The title "More Than NOPs" with an AKA title "More than NOPs"

i dont really agree with 2, but i guess i can live with it :) the entry looks acceptable now atleast (how embarrassing that the info that could have saved us atleast half the discussion already was in production info /o\)

and to close that discussion peacefully: please don't take this type of discussion personally. it's all about database integrity, and as you pointed out yourself, it's important to sort it out. even if the topic seems to be unimportant nitpicking about how something is spelled - every detail counts. we are still here to preserve how it was, not how it could have been, or how someone vaguely remembers it, or wants it to be. (especially the last two are a big problem, there IS a lot of deliberatly wrong info in the database already because of it, which might be the reason why i am maybe sometimes a bit overreacting when it comes to this kind of things. i would prefer no info over "could have been" type of info infact. atleast until we can flag info as "don't know").

2008-01-21 13:32

Steppe

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510

Folks, don't get too mental about naming conventions, it's not really worth the trouble. Sure, we in HVSC are using standard capitalization rules for titles (that would be More Than NOPs in this case), but there's plenty space for exceptions in those. Basically it boils down to "Give it the title it was released under. If there's space for interpretation (like differing titles in the note and the demo), use standard capitalization rules."

2008-01-21 13:36

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote: