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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4598 |
Release id #210333 : Babes
Discussion emerged. Posts below:
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 17 October 2021
Looking forward to more tests btw. On real drives.
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 17 October 2021
Ran it on a PAL 250469 REV A with a 1541-II without fastloader/cart. Cold boots between all runs. Tested it 20 times (even loaded different babes each time). Every load worked. I would say this release contains no loader bug (at least no bug that should matter), whatever you guys say, as it works, and should in emulation too. :)
And no fixed emulator version should be needed.
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 17 October 2021
Copyfault: Making a modification should have its own entry imho. But I will try to run it from disk a couple of times too. If that works 100% the goal should be to emulate this behaviour in emulation too, even if it's a "bug" that makes it fail in Vice and 1541U2+. The goal for emulation is to mimic real hw. We should not make fixes for stuff to run on emulators. But I'll be back with a report.
User Comment
Submitted by Copyfault [PM] on 17 October 2021
Thanks for all your comments! To clear it up: on my real hw it refused to start most of the time! I did not yet try a real drive, so this might ease the pain.
Now the funny things after reading your proposals:
- it seems to always load with 1541-uII+ if I choose AR 6.0 as cart
- I did not ask to get it run for the actual contents but rather out of interest for such an edge case, since sometimes this sparks new ideas for exploitations
- even when I get this to load completely, it does always do a direct exit from the selection menu and the note is the only thing I get to see
The only real fix was the noloader-version by Ian Coog, since this can be loaded without any problems independant of the system setup (real thing/emu/cartridge setting) plus this one stays in the selection menu as one would expect. @IanCoog: thanks for fixing! Though I was sure this is some standard thing I have to admit that I did not know by heart the steps that need to be taken to get rid of the autostart stuff!
Would it be acceptable to add a dl link for this noloader-version to this entry? Or is this already "something new"?
User Comment
Submitted by Krill [PM] on 17 October 2021
Seems to be a race-condition, i.e., a bug in the code, not so much the emulator.
Set breakpoint in drive at $0403, then load with ,8,1.
When it breaks into the monitor,
vv vv vv
good >8:0000 0f 01 01 0f 01 00 00 00 1f 10 06 00 12 00 12 00
evil >8:0000 0f 01 80 0f 01 00 00 00 1f 10 06 00 12 00 12 00
Success depends on whether the block at T06/S00 has been loaded yet or not.
That it seems to always work on the real thing might be a meta-stability, and may depend a lot on various delays caused by physical disk access and disk layout.
That it reliably breaks in VICE (plain BASIC) might have to do with that.
I'd not be surprised if it randomly breaks on the real thing, too (with a somewhat lower probability than breaking in VICE).
User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 17 October 2021
It actually works in VICE (and chameleon too, likely also 1541) when loading it with AR5/6 fastload enabled. Very odd :)
(it's also not worth the trouble... pretty meh pictures :/)
User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 17 October 2021
How is it "faulty" though? it started up no problem 3 times in a row on the real thing :)
User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 17 October 2021
Copyfault: that's the actual easier way to run it, by removing the faulty autoboot code, it's a simple diskeditor/hexeditor task.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f0y6kc4oo30rm3n/Babes-noloader.D64?dl..
User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 17 October 2021
The most important question is - does it work on the real thing?
User Comment
Submitted by Copyfault [PM] on 17 October 2021
Stumbled over this after seeing the new comments lately. So I tried to run it on the real thing (with 1541U-II+) and on the latest vice emulator also - without sucess!
Either it just stops loading, or -in the rare cases it manages to finish loading and starts to decrunch- the selection screen is built up but left towards the note immediately, without any chance to select "Collection".
Any ideas what's going on here? Any chances to create a... let's say "fixed version"?
User Comment
Submitted by TheRyk [PM] on 12 October 2021
yeah some drive emulation killer, I also needed several tries
RRR!
User Comment
Submitted by hedning [PM] on 12 October 2021
Took me a couple of tries in Vice to get it running (run it without fastloader), but eventually it works. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11123 |
BTW, i tried in various emulators too, especially Micro64 which emulates mechanical delays - it works in none of them.
Quote:I would say this release contains no loader bug (at least no bug that should matter), whatever you guys say, as it works, and should in emulation too. :)
And no fixed emulator version should be needed.
yes, this. it's an odd edge case for sure, and the program is buggy too - but that doesnt mean it should behave different in emulation than it does on the real thing. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2847 |
I have a hunch that perfectly aligned layout (d64 on emulators) vs. substantial skew (most non-original home-formatted disks) might play a prominent role here. :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
Quote: Also works on my 250469 REV 4 with 1541-II.
I haven't had time to test if it crashes after I disconnect the floppy drive, though. ;-)
LOL made my day X_D |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
[Danzig-Mode = TRUE]
Quoting Danzig...
Seems to be a hardly needed fap for you guys! Congratz! Primary Life Goal achieved: 8bit fapping :-D Damn how did you find *that* out? Imagine my disappointment when seeing those... erm... "pictures" for the first time ;)
[Danzig-Mode = FALSE]
Quoting Groepaz...
yes, this. it's an odd edge case for sure, and the program is buggy too - but that doesnt mean it should behave different in emulation than it does on the real thing. Quoting KrillI have a hunch that perfectly aligned layout (d64 on emulators) vs. substantial skew (most non-original home-formatted disks) might play a prominent role here. :) Is this "substantial skew" in any way taken care of in nowadays emulators? Or maybe it's even some other yet-not-emulated effect that plays in here? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11123 |
VICE doesnt emulate it, D64 is always perfectly aligned. Same is probably true for other emulators - as that is the obvious way to do it (and it doesnt matter usually). 1541U even has an option to do it even for G64 files iirc :)
That said, it'd be worth checking if you can make the collection work by using a g64 file that has the track skew encoded into it. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2847 |
Hmm, at some point i wanted to add various standard disk layouts (original DOS and a couple of popular fast-formatters) to VICE. Forgot about that until now. =)
Quoting GroepazThat said, it'd be worth checking if you can make the collection work by using a g64 file that has the track skew encoded into it. And the reverse, perfectly aligned disk on realthing to break it. :) |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 429 |
Quote: [Danzig-Mode = TRUE]
Quoting Danzig...
Seems to be a hardly needed fap for you guys! Congratz! Primary Life Goal achieved: 8bit fapping :-D Damn how did you find *that* out? Imagine my disappointment when seeing those... erm... "pictures" for the first time ;)
[Danzig-Mode = FALSE]
Quoting Groepaz...
yes, this. it's an odd edge case for sure, and the program is buggy too - but that doesnt mean it should behave different in emulation than it does on the real thing. Quoting KrillI have a hunch that perfectly aligned layout (d64 on emulators) vs. substantial skew (most non-original home-formatted disks) might play a prominent role here. :) Is this "substantial skew" in any way taken care of in nowadays emulators? Or maybe it's even some other yet-not-emulated effect that plays in here?
Wow, Danzig-Mode :-) I was sure there only ever existed Groepaz-Mode ;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11123 |
Quote:And the reverse, perfectly aligned disk on realthing to break it. :)
but how? =) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2847 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:And the reverse, perfectly aligned disk on realthing to break it. :)
but how? =) Hasn't someone invented an aligned format for 1571? :) And if not, pretty surely you can do it with ZoomFloppy on 1571? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
with the right cable...!
and IIRC you need a "real" 1571 not the one bulit in in C=128 DCR
as already was stated, silly to do it just for this particular image, but should be possible in theory... |
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