[CSDb] - User Forums - Event id #3157 : Unofficial Tiny SID Compo 2022

You are not logged in - nap

CSDb User Forums

Forums > CSDb Entries > Event id #3157 : Unofficial Tiny SID Compo 2022

2022-02-05 00:20

Karmic

Registered: Apr 2015
Posts: 66

Event id #3157 : Unofficial Tiny SID Compo 2022

Welcome to the Unofficial Tiny SID Compo 2022.

Rationale
Now, as you may be aware, recently in the scene there has been an uptick in people using so-called "tiny" SIDs, mostly thanks to Didi & Richard's series of Intro Creation Compos, where the intros are only allowed to use a certain block of RAM. The problem with this is that there is a severe lack of decent tiny SIDs out there- all it takes is a little bit of browsing through the comments of ICC2021 entries to see some discontentment over the same old GRG tunes being reused over and over again. Now unfortunately this compo comes a little too late to rectify that particular situation, but I believe that even outside of the ICC2021 context, coders will appreciate having a wider library of tiny SIDs to choose from for their killer RAM-eating effects.

This compo idea does have precedent- Stefano Tognon (Ice00) has previously hosted some Tiny SID Compos 15 or so years ago, which got a decent amount of entries. My rules are fairly different from his, though.

Rules
The goal of this compo is to produce a self-contained tune, where, with the exception of the zeropage and stack, the entire RAM area used by the tune is contained in one 512b/1kb/2kb (depending on the category) block.

The exact technical rules by which your tunes will be judged are as follows:
- All code, data, and non-zeropage variables that are required for your tune to play should fit in one continuous block of the size specified by the category. Your music code is not allowed to access any non-zeropage RAM outside of this range.
- Your music code should not rely on the initial state of any zeropage location.
- Stack area ($01xx) must only be accessed conventionally, as a stack. That is, only use JSR, RTS, PHA, PLA, PHP, and PLP. Most stack tricks hurt the self-contained-ness of your code.
- Your music code cannot access any I/O registers outside of $D400-$D41B.
- Your music code cannot access any of the ROMs (kernal, basic, chargen).
- Your music code cannot access $00-$01. A coder certainly won't like it if his SID interferes with the bank configuration.
- To give tunes some zeropage "breathing room", your music code cannot access $02-$07.
- Your music code cannot access $0200-$033B, $D000-$DFFF (the RAM under I/O), or $FFFA-$FFFF. Again, a coder won't like it if you mess with these.
- Your music code cannot change the I bit in the CPU status register. So, no SEI, no CLI, and any PLP should be accompanied by a corresponding PHP.
- If you find a use for the decimal mode, you must make sure you turn it off before your music code exits. You can safely assume decimal mode is off at the entry points of your music code.
- Your music routines should be accessible like a PSID file, with an init entry point that exits with an RTS, and a play entry point that executes once per frame, and exits with an RTS.

Be aware that none of the above rules apply to any code that presents your music. As per CSDb rules, you must provide an executable. A good way to think about it is: if we in HVSC had to rip your tune as a SID, which code and data would we have to include?

To make up for the extreme technical restrictions, I am giving you very little creative restrictions:
- Covers and tiny adaptations of other SID tunes ARE allowed.
- It IS allowed to use a player made by someone else, but your tune must be wholly new and not just a cheap edit of the original.
- One composer can enter a maximum of 2 tunes per category.
- Your tune must last for at least 10 seconds before it loops.
- Your tune's presentation must be fairly minimal. Some text, a logo, and an equalizer is okay, but you can't submit a whole demopart and call it a "music entry".

When adding your entries to CSDb, please use the "512b/1K/2K Game" compos. This looks odd but at the end of the day gives the best at-a-glance look at the categories.

The entry period lasts from right now until May 7th, 11:59 PM CSDb time (CET). Depending on the amount of entries, I will either use an external votesheet or you will vote right on CSDb. We'll see.

Tips
If you are a musician who is not a coder, you probably know someone who is and would be willing to help you. If you really don't, you can at least enter the 2k category with a tune in a slim player such as GoatTracker or NinjaTracker.

... 86 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2022-02-23 11:38

deetsay

Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 36

Quoting vincenzo

However, I'm an old fart and got too comfortable with the modern tools I use in my professional life. Working with an ancient C64 editor is a pain. It's beautiful, but it hurts.

Funny, it's pretty much the opposite for me. Modern tools are limitless, nothing is never "done", there's always another channel you can add, another plugin you can try, a thing you can twist... On the C64 it's actually possible to finish a tune and say "I've bumped into the limits now so I guess this is done".

2022-02-23 11:53

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2839

Quoting Dano

Maybe it makes sense to list those here then?

I may dig around for a bit.

I was mistaken in GRG's routine being released in source, though. I took the liberty to upload it: Plaster (Hope you don't mind, Glenn! :D)
The player in music.s in Artefacts is based on GRG's player, and, well, open-source since release back in 2006. It became the basis for the ~512 bytes tune of Softwired =)

Edit: And ChristopherJam pointed me at 1kplay =)

Quote:

Yeah, it took me a while to find one for my lame 4k intro back then.

4K intro (ICC rules) or 4K demo (standard rules)? :)

Because for the latter, you don't need any coding skills at all to compose a tune in about $0600 bytes with existing editors+players, as seen in various 4K demos. :)

2022-02-23 22:59

Henne

Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 26

Hi!
You can find the source code of some TinySID compo entries + explanations in the SIDin magazine, e.g. this one: SIDin #10

2022-02-24 08:23

vincenzo

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 78

Quote: Quoting vincenzo
However, I'm an old fart and got too comfortable with the modern tools I use in my professional life. Working with an ancient C64 editor is a pain. It's beautiful, but it hurts.

Funny, it's pretty much the opposite for me. Modern tools are limitless, nothing is never "done", there's always another channel you can add, another plugin you can try, a thing you can twist... On the C64 it's actually possible to finish a tune and say "I've bumped into the limits now so I guess this is done".

What I was referring to is the way of instrument design and handling notes.
The SID is basically a substractive synthesizer. On a VST or hardware synth you have the knobs and faders to define the sound. In most of the cases there's also visual indication of parameters and waveforms, so you always know what you modify.
On a C64 with numeric editors it's completely different. Yes, it's a substractive synthesizer but without obvious feedback.

If I'm new to the C64, how would I know that waveform 1x is triangle, 2x is sawtooth, and their combination is 3x? Gate on/off 0/1? Same with the filter, 9/A/B/C/D/E, cutoff is XX or sometimes XXX. Not to mention that the "LFO" to modulate parameters is basically a triangle LFO that works with adding or substracting values to the initial value over time. What is a hardrestart, why should I use it and how the hell do I define it if the player like defMON or Virtuoso give you complete freedom to do it?

So yeah, we grew up with the numeric editors, they make perfect sense on the C64 but probably we got so used to it that we forget about usability and user experience.
Would composers create better songs with better UI's? Does it worth the effort to make a completely new music editor interface just because of a couple of composers would be happier? Would more people try to make music on the C64 with visually more satisfying editors? Would it be good for the scene or it would be flooded with crap tunes?

2022-02-24 10:28

Digger

Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 421

I guess SIDTracker 64 was that attempt to make SID composing available for masses. I am still dreaming about writing an open-source browser based editor that would allow for neat UI experience, e.g. auto chords mapping to intervals, automating param values with bezier curves etc. But it will probably never happen.

2022-02-24 14:11

deetsay

Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 36

Quoting vincenzo

What I was referring to is the way of instrument design and handling notes.
The SID is basically a substractive synthesizer. On a VST or hardware synth you have the knobs and faders to define the sound. In most of the cases there's also visual indication of parameters and waveforms, so you always know what you modify.

OK, hardware synths can be cool, because they can also offer some "creative limitations", but these days they can also be too full of software with no limits. That's the problem: There is no "I wonder what I can do with this today? I wonder if I could do *THAT* on this?" You already know that you can, and somebody has already done it better (whoops, that problem exists with SIDs too). But yeah, you have software with unlimited sliders with unlimited accuracy. Not that you really need them for anything, because there are 25000 presets sorted in 200 categories by genre. Stuff may sound pretty good, but you can also try another plugin. Add another effect on top, no limits. Maybe throw it all away because with all those effects it doesn't feel too neat any more, and go play with that hardware synth instead because you clearly remember that one time you got that sound out of it, so you could sample it (unlimited sample time with unlimited options for beatmatching and stretching of course)...

Quoting vincenzo

On a C64 with numeric editors it's completely different. Yes, it's a substractive synthesizer but without obvious feedback.

Luckily the most important feedback is there: Hearing the audio. And neatly limited options to pick the best sound from.

Quoting vincenzo

Would composers create better songs with better UI's? Does it worth the effort to make a completely new music editor interface just because of a couple of composers would be happier? Would more people try to make music on the C64 with visually more satisfying editors? Would it be good for the scene or it would be flooded with crap tunes?

Making a UI that's better for experts AND good for beginners is not going to be easy. There is no shortage of software, and I'm sure they all did their best. But I'm also sure many will still try... At least for a couple of decades more.

Remember MSSIAH with its piano roll and mouse control? Did anyone do something for the Real C64 scene with it?

2022-02-24 14:14

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114

Quote:

Remember MSSIAH with its piano roll and mouse control? Did anyone do something for the Real C64 scene with it?

And if not - ask yourself why not....

2022-05-07 14:09

Jammer

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289

@Karmic: Any chance to expand compo about a week or so? My new routine is almost done and I'm kinda desperate to finish it :D Or maybe at least till tomorrow/Sunday?

2022-05-07 14:40

acrouzet

Registered: May 2020
Posts: 80

Quote: What I was referring to is the way of instrument design and handling notes.
The SID is basically a substractive synthesizer. On a VST or hardware synth you have the knobs and faders to define the sound. In most of the cases there's also visual indication of parameters and waveforms, so you always know what you modify.
On a C64 with numeric editors it's completely different. Yes, it's a substractive synthesizer but without obvious feedback.

If I'm new to the C64, how would I know that waveform 1x is triangle, 2x is sawtooth, and their combination is 3x? Gate on/off 0/1? Same with the filter, 9/A/B/C/D/E, cutoff is XX or sometimes XXX. Not to mention that the "LFO" to modulate parameters is basically a triangle LFO that works with adding or substracting values to the initial value over time. What is a hardrestart, why should I use it and how the hell do I define it if the player like defMON or Virtuoso give you complete freedom to do it?

So yeah, we grew up with the numeric editors, they make perfect sense on the C64 but probably we got so used to it that we forget about usability and user experience.
Would composers create better songs with better UI's? Does it worth the effort to make a completely new music editor interface just because of a couple of composers would be happier? Would more people try to make music on the C64 with visually more satisfying editors? Would it be good for the scene or it would be flooded with crap tunes?

As a younger chiptuner/scener, I cannot count how many times I have seen very talented composers be turned off from trying out SID music by the interfaces of SID trackers. The current options for more accessible tools aren't great at the moment.

There's Deflemask, which is a bug-filled mess that exports pure register dumps.

SidTracker 64 is for a limited platform (iPad), costs money, and is lacking some important features. (It also seems to be in development limbo).

There are some promising developments, though. GTUltra is a step in the right direction, and there's a new multiplatform tracker called Furnace which is supposed to be getting SID export in the future.

2022-05-07 15:44

Karmic

Registered: Apr 2015
Posts: 66

Quoting Jammer

@Karmic: Any chance to expand compo about a week or so? My new routine is almost done and I'm kinda desperate to finish it :D Or maybe at least till tomorrow/Sunday?

I'll give another week. Entries are now due at the end of May 14, CET.

Previous - 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 - Next

Refresh

Subscribe to this thread:

You need to be logged in to post in the forum.

Search the forum:
Search for in
All times are CET.

Search CSDb

Advanced

Users Online

cba
encore
Higgie/Kraze/Onslaught
tlr
Apollyon/ALD
Martin Piper
Guests online: 122

Top Demos

1 Next Level  (9.8)
2 Mojo  (9.7)
3 Coma Light 13  (9.7)
4 Edge of Disgrace  (9.6)
5 Comaland 100%  (9.6)
6 No Bounds  (9.6)
7 Uncensored  (9.6)
8 Wonderland XIV  (9.6)
9 Memento Mori  (9.6)
10 Bromance  (9.5)

Top onefile Demos

1 It's More Fun to Com..  (9.7)
2 Party Elk 2  (9.7)
3 Cubic Dream  (9.6)
4 Copper Booze  (9.5)
5 TRSAC, Gabber & Pebe..  (9.5)
6 Rainbow Connection  (9.5)
7 Onscreen 5k  (9.5)
8 Wafer Demo  (9.5)
9 Dawnfall V1.1  (9.5)
10 Quadrants  (9.5)

Top Groups

1 Oxyron  (9.3)
2 Nostalgia  (9.3)
3 Booze Design  (9.3)
4 Censor Design  (9.3)
5 Crest  (9.3)

Top Webmasters

1 Slaygon  (9.7)
2 Perff  (9.6)
3 Morpheus  (9.5)
4 Sabbi  (9.5)
5 CreaMD  (9.1)

Page generated in: 0.051 sec.