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2024-04-17 18:59

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Experiments on the Sound

I've been working on an algorithm to dynamically recompile the byte code for the SID chip, creating interesting and pleasing tunes provide the original tune is melodic.

Basically GIGO (garbage in garbage out) ensues with this algorithm if the tune used as the input has no Melody.

I've received a lot of feedback with earlier versions of the algorithm with some C64 fans really enjoying the sound and some not as pleased, either way share your thoughts here and any ideas to improve the algorithm.

Cross platform algorithmic arrangements:

This algorithm runs cross platform and works on the Atari 2600 TIA as well as the SID.

Here is the WIP for STARBLITZ Neon Sound on the C64 and Atari respectively:

https://youtu.be/ixuHdHvqMK8
https://youtu.be/FfAga57yJFs

The original musical composition can be heard at 4:30 in the Atari version, a Blues piece. Various soft piano and Jazz and electronic sound implementations are heard in the C64 version. I find it interesting that different music genres appear to emerge as the musical score is recursively processed by the algorithm.

Another algorithm is used to interpret the TIA on the C64 SID which sounds completely different. Even trying to get the 6581 and 8050 SID models to sound uniform is very difficult. I am not trying to get the same exact Sound like the gameplay and graphics (besides the motion pixel art).

2024-04-17 19:36

mutetus

Registered: Dec 2020
Posts: 12

I absolutely don't get it.

2024-04-17 19:56

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

nevermind, you are not alone :)

2024-04-17 23:06

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Quote: I absolutely don't get it.

Every time a level is completed in this game you Defend another City and a new SID is created for the next level.

It is easy where the soundtracks change from the different pixel art for each City on the C64.

If you die on a level the soundtrack stays the same on the Title screen until you start a new game.

2024-04-18 02:27

acrouzet

Registered: May 2020
Posts: 97

I think what they're saying is that this program takes an input .sid file and scrambles its data to create a procedurally generated output.

2024-04-18 03:11

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Quote: I think what they're saying is that this program takes an input .sid file and scrambles its data to create a procedurally generated output.

Yes this is it exactly.

The mathematical rules of the algorithm create different sound envelopes, tempos and instruments guided by the existing mathematical rules in the sid composition.

When the sid sounds good to begin with the procedurally generated output may also sound good.

I'd like to try this with some of the great sid composers music and maybe build the algorithm into a custom SID player to produce these variations, perhaps with the option to selectively save variations that sound good as new sids.

2024-04-18 03:55

ws

Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 251

Quoting TRON

13:37+
[Lora and Dr. Gibbs are preparing to digitize an orange]

Lora:
Well, here goes nothing.

Dr. Gibbs:
Yeah. Interesting. Interesting! Did you hear what you just said? "Here goes nothing."

Lora:
Well, what I meant was...

Dr. Gibbs:
Actually, what we propose to do is to change something into nothing, and back again. Then you might just as well have said "Here goes something. Here comes nothing."

Lora:
Right, mhm.

Technician:
('right,) let's clear the area.

2024-04-18 10:11

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

When the sid sounds good to begin with the procedurally generated output may also sound good.

So when is that?

2024-04-18 13:19

Bitbreaker

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 508

Well chosen words and a high level of imagination give me the expectation that my ears would receive gold soon, but what i hear in the end, is just shit.
So i guess the bias between reality and perception seems way off here.

2024-04-18 15:01

Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337

It implements WIGO.

Whatever in garbage out.

2024-04-18 17:03

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Quote: Quoting TRON

13:37+
[Lora and Dr. Gibbs are preparing to digitize an orange]

Lora:
Well, here goes nothing.

Dr. Gibbs:
Yeah. Interesting. Interesting! Did you hear what you just said? "Here goes nothing."

Lora:
Well, what I meant was...

Dr. Gibbs:
Actually, what we propose to do is to change something into nothing, and back again. Then you might just as well have said "Here goes something. Here comes nothing."

Lora:
Right, mhm.

Technician:
('right,) let's clear the area.

Love the Tron quote, very inspiring!

Dr. Walter Gibbs:
Supporting users is what our business is for.
Dillinger:
Selling Computers is what our business is for.

Here's a different version of the algorithm that C64 fans have said sounds like the sounds in Tron, this version uses one less bit for the transformations:

The Atari version plays right after the C64 version and also sounds good imo but different:
https://youtu.be/eyxKsuFRvYM

Here's the extra bit version with a different input tune, which is melodic going in per my observations and some previous feedback:
https://youtu.be/sNIGrdEQsvc

It's all subjective, some people may or may not like experiments on the Sound.

2024-04-18 17:47

Bansai

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 49

Quoting acrouzet

I think what they're saying is that this program takes an input .sid file and scrambles its data to create a procedurally generated output.

Sounds like it's an attempt at something similar to what is described here: https://www.langston.com/Papers/amc.pdf

2024-04-19 05:27

Hate Bush

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 465

i find your persistence fascinating.

2024-04-19 11:30

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Quote: Quoting acrouzet
I think what they're saying is that this program takes an input .sid file and scrambles its data to create a procedurally generated output.
Sounds like it's an attempt at something similar to what is described here: https://www.langston.com/Papers/amc.pdf

Great research paper, this is an interesting read!

‘‘. . . any attempts to simulate
the compositional abilities of humans will probably not succeed until in fact the musical models and plans
that humans use are described and modeled.’’ [MOORER72] And more recently: ‘‘It seems that musical
composition is a hard mental task that requires a substantial amount of knowledge, and any serious attempt
to simulate ‘noncomputer’ music composition on the computer would have to face the task of constructing
a formal model of considerable complexity. We have found that even the algorithmic representation of the
knowledge underlying the seemingly simple Bach chorale style is a task that already borders the
intractable.’’

I see some parallels in my research to the theory these researchers came up with. I had an earlier attempt that just used an algorithm in GateCrasher Jazz Improv:

https://bunsen.itch.io/gate-crasher-commodore-64-by-mr-sql

This worked OK for scales and riffs but to model the complex mathematical musical structures composers create, an algorithm processing an existing composition can maintain some of their relationships reusing the math.

I'm still reading the paper, wonder if these researchers considered this cheating or also implemented this idea.

2024-04-19 11:51

Frostbyte

Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 183

I've been a bit hesitant in commenting about these experiments, as I really wouldn't want to curb your enthusiasm as you're clearly enjoying what you're doing.

On theoretical level I find the concept very fascinating - an algorithm that takes something proven good and pleasing as an input and does a programmatic "re-imagination" of it, in the lack of better words.

However on practical level, as it currently stands, it simply does not work. Now I've listened to all kinds of weird sh*t in my life from brutal Japanese noise via early electronic music experiments to all kinds of avantgardistic or minimalistic compositions. Even though most people wouldn't define any of the aforementioned as music in any way, they've all had at least something to grab on to - let it be captivating structures, fascinating soundscapes, interesting rhythms, pleasing evolvement (sometimes over a very long period of time), some melodic structure even if not necessarily on the typical western chromatic scale or even any scale, whatever.

As your algorithm currently stands, as far as I can hear, it does none of this. Maybe you have a different view on what makes music music, and clearly a very different view from mine what makes music Blues or Jazz, but all I can hear is nearly random bleeps and bloops with uninteresting, simple sounds that do not complement the SID chip's capabilities.

I'm not hear to tell you what to do, you do you and if it floats your boat, so be it. But at least in my opinion you'd need to rethink your algorithm for it to deliver anything that even remotely resembles music. Maybe introduce some guidelines that would direct the algo to build structures closer to the input composition, guidelines about what is preferred melodically, soundwise etc, and maybe the algorithm would eventually end up producing something music-like, or at least something that sounds interesting.

Anyway, that was my long 2p. I also appreciate your enthusiasm like Mr. Bush there, even though the results might not be what I'd call great. At least you're doing something, and that something is stuff that AFAIK no one else is currently experimenting with on C64, so there's that.

2024-04-19 12:20

Flotsam

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 84

Interesting shit, even if the current results are a bit monotone sounding. I'm interested in seeing how it evolves, might complement an experimental, procedural game nicely. Also would be cool to hear something in native format instead of a YT video recorded with a potato. Keep up the good work, I'm following.

2024-04-19 13:36

Mixer

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452

My Roomba likes it. It has been resting a lot recently, it is old and its battery is worn. I played some 8-bit LFSR generated sequences that were mapped to simple scales for 3 SID voices to it. Roomba listened to it still and in silence, so it must have been enjoying the experience. Usually when I play SID music, it keeps running around the chairs's leg, bumping to it repeatedly clearly asking me to stop. After listening to that LFSR loop for a few hours I knew the melody myself. So, what ever it is, just make it loud and repeat, you'll like it eventually.

2024-04-19 13:47

tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790

Quoting Mixer

I played some 8-bit LFSR generated sequences that were mapped to simple scales for 3 SID voices to it. Roomba listened to it still and in silence, so it must have been enjoying the experience.

which polynomial was that?

2024-06-01 06:28

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

I've continued this research with the soundtrack and Fx in my port of Tron Deadly Discs.

Here are three interesting algorithmic songs from the Atari 2600 version:

I will share the C64 version next.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCBkm3xVKho

2024-06-01 23:41

JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014

Quote: I've continued this research with the soundtrack and Fx in my port of Tron Deadly Discs.

Here are three interesting algorithmic songs from the Atari 2600 version:

I will share the C64 version next.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCBkm3xVKho

Please explain the research, because visuals and audio only doesn't make me understand tbh. Anyway, please keep up whatever floats your boat.

2024-06-02 09:19

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094

sounds exactly as what I would expect from a randomly generated "music" (ie not good)

2024-06-02 10:04

Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337

@Oswald: Well, i would expect more from a generator.

2024-06-02 10:09

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094

Quote: @Oswald: Well, i would expect more from a generator.

probably because I dont know shit about music and music generators, and you do know more :)

2024-06-02 20:11

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Something like an endless random pentatonic lead over a random blues scheme shouldn't be too hard to do, even on c64 :) And the result shouldn't turn out too shabby either (probably no different to many existing tunes which are basically just that)

2024-06-03 16:46

Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648

Idea: Automatic Drax song generator compo.

Speaking of randomization of music on the C64; In Essentials I did a kind of hack that randomly imposes algoritmic variations on top of the original Druid II tune/player. It is obviously primarily meant to be spaced out, than "good", but still an example of random variation within certain constraints. You can control how much randomness is imposed by dragging the bar further to the right. At the leftmost side no randomness is imposed, and at the rightmost side there is quite a lot of weird stuff happening. (The randomness "engine" is built on the same principles as the code that generate a lot of glitches on top of the Hat Trick game in HT Gold with different "layers" of random tweaks that operate separately, and therefore potentially also on top of each other, at the same time.)

Some other time I did a random music generator for one of those 256 bytes player compos: Block Acid Dub [254 bytes] In this case it is mostly drums, bass and various bleepz.

2024-06-03 20:15

tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790

Compo idea, algorithmic music?

2024-06-04 05:08

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Quoting Frantic

Idea: Automatic Drax song generator compo.

Speaking of randomization of music on the C64; In Essentials I did a kind of hack that randomly imposes algoritmic variations on top of the original Druid II tune/player. It is obviously primarily meant to be spaced out, than "good", but still an example of random variation within certain constraints. You can control how much randomness is imposed by dragging the bar further to the right. At the leftmost side no randomness is imposed, and at the rightmost side there is quite a lot of weird stuff happening. (The randomness "engine" is built on the same principles as the code that generate a lot of glitches on top of the Hat Trick game in HT Gold with different "layers" of random tweaks that operate separately, and therefore potentially also on top of each other, at the same time.)

Some other time I did a random music generator for one of those 256 bytes player compos: Block Acid Dub [254 bytes] In this case it is mostly drums, bass and various bleepz.

The 256 byte tune is fantastic!
Excellent example with the interactive slider for Druid II.
Can the engine work on any SID tune?

Also liked the petscii animated Mech Robot!

2024-06-04 05:26

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Quoting chatGPZ

Something like an endless random pentatonic lead over a random blues scheme shouldn't be too hard to do, even on c64 :) And the result shouldn't turn out too shabby either (probably no different to many existing tunes which are basically just that)

Agree that could sound really good.

Here is an interesting pentatonic scale algorithm programmed using the Atari 2600 BASIC Programming cartridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JliXJueItZY

2024-06-04 05:54

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Quoting JackAsser

Please explain the research, because visuals and audio only doesn't make me understand tbh. Anyway, please keep up whatever floats your boat.

Sure. Here is the C64 version of Tron Deadly Discs featuring the latest version of the generator:

https://youtu.be/xc4pzIDNCZ8

How it works is there are basically three chip tunes in the game.

One tune that plays repeatedly and two tunes that may merge or temporarily take over the melody whenever the player or Master Control Program Guards are hit.

The first round has the three tunes unchanged by the generator. Like Frantic's slide generator it uses existing tunes as inputs for algorithmic variations on the sound.

Select 1080p60 to play the video clearly for the visual Fx.

2024-06-04 18:03

Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648

Quoting Mr SQL

The 256 byte tune is fantastic!
Excellent example with the interactive slider for Druid II.
Can the engine work on any SID tune?

Thanks. The Druid II hack is tailored to the specific song/player in this case. I had to figure out some reasonably simple tweaks that would suit this particular composition and still sound at least fairly "musical". For example, it may be okay to randomly change the waveform of some "piano" instrument between sine/triangle/square or to enable/disable ring modulation on that sound, but perhaps not to change a drum sound by changing noise wave to another waveform as that would only sound crappy. (Not that there are any drums in this particular tune, but you get the point).

On a more abstract level, I guess one could say that it would be possible to do "the same thing" on other tunes as well. That is, to use the same general approach.

2024-06-06 07:56

F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117

Almost as if it would be wonderful to have a randomizer in a music editor one day. :D

2024-06-06 14:13

Frantic

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648

Controlled randomness will be a central built in feature of deathMON, to be released in 2052.

2024-06-06 19:07

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

Almost as if it would be wonderful to have a randomizer in a music editor one day. :D

The Atari Cubase i used in my last life had this :)

2024-06-06 23:24

ws

Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 251

a buddy and i created the now free "tongerät1" vst plugin, which has a button "störstrahlung" in the settings. if you enable that button, randomly, over time each parameter will once in a while be altered slightly in a random fashion http://sys.efope.de/tonge.html so if you create some notes on a certain patch, and then activate that button and render 2h of audio, the sound will be transformed into a mutation of the original sound - but not according to any aeshtetics, so the sound can become pretty "fucked up".

2024-06-08 02:12

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Quoting Frantic

Quoting Mr SQL
The 256 byte tune is fantastic!
Excellent example with the interactive slider for Druid II.
Can the engine work on any SID tune?

Thanks. The Druid II hack is tailored to the specific song/player in this case. I had to figure out some reasonably simple tweaks that would suit this particular composition and still sound at least fairly "musical". For example, it may be okay to randomly change the waveform of some "piano" instrument between sine/triangle/square or to enable/disable ring modulation on that sound, but perhaps not to change a drum sound by changing noise wave to another waveform as that would only sound crappy. (Not that there are any drums in this particular tune, but you get the point).

On a more abstract level, I guess one could say that it would be possible to do "the same thing" on other tunes as well. That is, to use the same general approach.

Very cool. btw Hat Trick is fantastic! The wild graphics go really well with the sounds.

Quoting F7sus4

Almost as if it would be wonderful to have a randomizer in a music editor one day. :D

Quoting chatGPZ

The Atari Cubase i used in my last life had this :)

This is a great idea, there could be music editors with these kind of algorithms.

I'm working on a music editor that has something like this now. The tracker includes a Tiny BASIC language that can programmatically resequence on the fly or apply algorithms.

Here is a recent example where I added the code for the algorithm to the tracker in another game. You can hear the original SID in the first round. There is a second algorithm in this game that changes the SID temporarily as it is playing interacting with the algorithm that permanently revises the music:
https://youtu.be/zEJTEzrszcw

I wonder if music editors have ever included a scripting language before? The Cubase feature is a close application.

2024-06-10 14:12

Hate Bush

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 465

as much as i absolutely CRAVE for such editor (standard tracker + simple scripts for randomizing things) since i had started writing shit on C64... i somehow doubt if it's going to happen here and now.
hope that motivates you to prove me wrong ;)

2024-06-10 20:03

spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498

Quoting Hate Bush

as much as i absolutely CRAVE for such editor (standard tracker + simple scripts for randomizing things) since i had started writing shit on C64... i somehow doubt if it's going to happen here and now.

I did something like this for a game for Endurion (don't remember the name right now). Used 2 voices for music and 3rd voice for random SFX instruments to create some kind of "spooky" atmosphere. Unfortunately it did confuse people to think some things were happening in game when they weren't.

Of course you're limited to (ab)use wavetables even for little melody parts with the SFX approach. But I feel this idea could be taken much further than I took it.

Also I think if you prepare a bunch of patterns in the first subtune and just loop one voice over an empty pattern it should be possible to randomly insert patterns on the fly.

But I guess by "scripting" you mean not programming the randomizer / ruleset parts in assembly (?) ...

2024-06-12 03:38

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Quoting spider-j

Quoting Hate Bush
as much as i absolutely CRAVE for such editor (standard tracker + simple scripts for randomizing things) since i had started writing shit on C64... i somehow doubt if it's going to happen here and now.

I did something like this for a game for Endurion (don't remember the name right now). Used 2 voices for music and 3rd voice for random SFX instruments to create some kind of "spooky" atmosphere. Unfortunately it did confuse people to think some things were happening in game when they weren't.

Of course you're limited to (ab)use wavetables even for little melody parts with the SFX approach. But I feel this idea could be taken much further than I took it.

Also I think if you prepare a bunch of patterns in the first subtune and just loop one voice over an empty pattern it should be possible to randomly insert patterns on the fly.

But I guess by "scripting" you mean not programming the randomizer / ruleset parts in assembly (?) ...

^This is interesting I would like to check it out if you remember the name. The Tracker I am working on has some of these aspects.

It lets you define patterns for the melody and subtunes for two voices only and uses a logical and of the waveform to create a harmonic for the third voice.

If you don't add any code the melody will play in the player but must have script to play one of the subtunes or modify the Sound. You can use Assembly too.

Wavetables are heavily utilized because the editor abstracts the voice frequencies to fit 32 note and 32 instrument defs.
The note frequency slides around a bit depending on the instrument definition.

Quoting Hate Bush

as much as i absolutely CRAVE for such editor (standard tracker + simple scripts for randomizing things) since i had started writing shit on C64... i somehow doubt if it's going to happen here and now.
hope that motivates you to prove me wrong ;)

Very cool! I would love your feedback on this experimental Tracker.

Here is a simple example creating a chiptune and then adding an algorithm with the scripting.

Output:
I like the SID tunes created at 6:04 and 9:40 by the algorithm after multiple iterations:
https://youtu.be/ElOiambwmWw

Input:
Here is the initial SID in the format described above,
Only two voices are programmed in this Tracker:

Def, frequency, Def, frequency, number of frames

chiptunes
4,19,4,19,8
4,17,4,17,8
4,15,4,15,8
4,14,4,14,16
4,19,4,19,8
4,14,4,14,16
4,19,4,19,8
4,14,4,14,16
4,19,4,19,8
4,14,4,14,8
4,14,4,14,8
4,15,4,15,8
4,17,4,17,8
4,19,4,19,16
4,26,4,26,8
4,19,4,19,16
4,26,4,26,8 
4,19,4,19,16
4,26,4,26,8
4,19,4,19,8
4,19,4,19,8
4,17,4,17,8
4,15,4,15,8
4,14,4,9,32
0,0,0,0,48
6,30,6,30,8
6,27,6,27,8
6,24,6,24,8
6,22,6,22,8
6,30,6,30,16
6,22,6,22,8
6,30,6,30,16
6,22,6,22,8
6,30,6,30,16
6,22,6,22,8
6,22,6,22,8
6,24,6,24,8
6,27,6,27,8
6,30,6,30,8   
1,5,1,5,16
6,30,6,30,8   
1,5,1,5,16
6,30,6,30,8   
1,5,1,5,16
6,30,6,30,8
1,5,1,5,16
0,0,0,0,64
0,0,0,0,0
7,30,7,30,24
7,24,7,24,24
0,0,0,0,0

The SID plays unchanged on the first level and then this BASIC script rebuilds it:

rebuildmusic rem algorithm to rebuild chiptune
 for i=0 to 255
 MusicData(i)=MusicData(i)&%00011111+3
 next i
 return

The entire chiptune is exposed to the scripting language as a variable array. This makes it easy to apply algorithms.

Scripts can also run every frame allowing the parameters and tempo to be changed with temporary Fx.

The graphics in the game are written in BASIC scripting too but they are not necessary to use the Tracker nor is the SID scripting. This example would compile into a prg with the player. All scripts compile into Assembly in the prg as part of the player.

2024-07-10 10:32

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

Here is a Tracker Script demo that uses scripting to allow listeners to interact with the SID by sequencing subtunes, chords and measures in the composition with the controller and to generate new SIDs algorithmically when the button is held.

Scripts and prg combined with the player:
https://relationalframework.com/TrackerScriptDemo.txt
https://relationalframework.com/trackerscript.prg

Video of me playing SID 53 with the scripts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvIcbLeCYXc

2024-10-01 18:03

Mr SQL

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 137

New Star Raiders Cover uses Tracker Script to let you conduct when playing the game:
https://youtu.be/ZH13eKZ583Q

Leaving the stick in neutral plays a 10-15 second space tune which repeats.
Holding the stick in any direction plays four different sound effects.
Releasing the stick plays a different subtune that lasts 20-30 seconds and returns to the main tune.
Holding the button down for 20 seconds advances to the next SID with different musical selections and Fx.

Interestingly the experimental player does not always initialize properly on real hardware, it was barely audible here by comparison:
https://youtu.be/qKa9McjqU_E

The volume register is maxed, this player controls volume through the ADSR envelope. I am not sure what is causing the initialization issue with my 6581. The Sound inits under emulation.

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