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Forums > C64 Composing > Amiga musician thinking about composing on C64
2024-09-15 22:32
Tommy

Registered: Sep 2024
Posts: 11
Amiga musician thinking about composing on C64

Hi there!

Back in the 90's I was active as a composer in the Amiga demo scene and mostly made chip music (I also made the music for a few PC productions in the 90's and early 00's). I primarily used ProTracker and AHX.
I've decided to (finally) try to make some music on the Commodore 64. I've played around a little bit (with a huge emphasis on little) with Goat Tracker many years ago but never finished or released anything.

If you would start out brand spanking new right now and would pick an editor, which one would you choose?
It seems to me like the two most obvious choices are either
1) Goat Tracker / GTUltra, or
2) SID Factory II.
What are the pros and cons with either choice?
Would you pick something else? If yes, what and why?
It's probably not a bad idea to learn multiple editors, but I'd rather focus on one while I learn to crawl.

When you save the songs as Commodore 64 machine code is it worth the effort optimizing the patterns in the editor yourself beforehand, or do the editors generally do a good job of optimizing the patterns for you (cut out empty sections etc)?

If you pick Goat Tracker, are there any benefits using GTUltra instead? Is GTUltra purely a different UI, or are there any other differences? Are the songs you make in GTUltra fully compatible with Goat Tracker?

In Goat Tracker I've noticed that there's quite some delay between hitting a key and an instrument playing (seems to be true in the other editors as well). Even if I'm running the program with the /B1 argument there's a very noticeable delay. Do you have any tricks on how to minimize the delay so that jam mode actually becomes usable?

Do you have any technical tips or tricks worth sharing when it comes to for example dealing with the ADSR bug? I'd like to minimize the duration of any silence on each channel before triggering a new note. I'm sure this is very dependent on how the ADSR envelope is set up on an instrument, but any help would be appreciated.

I know that I'm asking a lot of questions, but any help would be greatly appreciated before I jump into the rabbit hole.

Best regards, Tommy.
2024-09-16 00:46
CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057
A lot of good insightful questions actually. I don't use these editors so I will just wait and read what skilled users of these editors will answer.
2024-09-16 04:10
acrouzet

Registered: May 2020
Posts: 97
Hi, I've heard some of your AHX work. Good stuff!

Keep in mind that no matter what you choose, SID tracking in general is more involved than using other trackers. Editing sounds requires the use of "tables", which are like lists of effect commands without much abstraction to guide you along. You can also set the length and speeds of individual channels independent of each other, which can become a bit hard to manage if you attempt it.

While I only know GTUltra, I find it quite comfortable, and its workflow is quite similar to Amiga MOD. (Hint: clicking on the labels above the tables will expand them into a more human-readable form). The only difference between GTUltra and GT2 is the interface. To me, it seems GT2/U removes unused table entries and patterns upon export, but doesn't optimize much else.

I believe SID Factory II is based on JCH's old music editor, which has its own slightly different workflow (especially regarding pattern management), but it does have some more capability than GT2 (such as full 12-bit cutoff control and arpeggio tables). It also has different music drivers you can select that each have a different amount of capability and resource usage, but overall its standard driver seems to use a bit more resources than GT2/U.

The latency is something that doesn't seem to be avoidable (at least on my PC), probably because SID emulation is quite involved.

The way to minimize the silence between notes can differ between editors, and it can depend on what kind of sound you want, as there are multiple ways to do it. In GT2/U, the least buggy way to do it is to set HR/Gate to either $01 or $82. This will result in only 1 frame of silence between notes. $01 will result in a "harder" attack, while $82 will result in a "softer/looser" attack. You can remove the silence altogether by setting the 1st Frame Wave to something other than 0/test, but that may result in glitches.

Good luck composing! I'm looking forward to hearing what you come up with on the SID.
2024-09-16 07:44
spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498
Quoting acrouzet
To me, it seems GT2/U removes unused table entries and patterns upon export, but doesn't optimize much else.

In GT2 you can manually run the "optimize" process without exporting by hitting SHIFT + ESCAPE.

That said: of course manual optimisation will always be better. But I wouldn't bother too much with this unless you make music for a demo / intro.

It's quite common these days to have tunes with 6-8 KB or even more in music competitions. Especially from the top notch artists that deliver complex compositions and sound design.

Regarding editor / player: I found it very helpful to start with SID-Wizard on a real C64 and trying the PC emulation based trackers afterwards. It's way more easy to differ between user error and emulation limits this way. Even SID-Wizard in a recent VICE I think is a little more accurate than SF II or GT2 and its forks when it comes to the details. Because of this Cadaver made GoatTracker V2.xx Tweak Utility as an option to tweak your GT2 tunes on a real machine.
2024-09-16 14:13
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386
Is there still no gt2 build with a recent resid? why? :)
2024-09-16 20:12
Tommy

Registered: Sep 2024
Posts: 11
Quoting acrouzet
Hi, I've heard some of your AHX work. Good stuff!


Thanks.

Quoting acrouzet
Keep in mind that no matter what you choose, SID tracking in general is more involved than using other trackers. Editing sounds requires the use of "tables", which are like lists of effect commands without much abstraction to guide you along. You can also set the length and speeds of individual channels independent of each other, which can become a bit hard to manage if you attempt it.


I don't find that part difficult, actually. I'm more concerned about dealing with the technical details of the SID.

Quoting acrouzet
While I only know GTUltra, I find it quite comfortable, and its workflow is quite similar to Amiga MOD. (Hint: clicking on the labels above the tables will expand them into a more human-readable form). The only difference between GTUltra and GT2 is the interface. To me, it seems GT2/U removes unused table entries and patterns upon export, but doesn't optimize much else.


Ok, good to know. Thank you.

Quoting acrouzet
I believe SID Factory II is based on JCH's old music editor, which has its own slightly different workflow (especially regarding pattern management), but it does have some more capability than GT2 (such as full 12-bit cutoff control and arpeggio tables). It also has different music drivers you can select that each have a different amount of capability and resource usage, but overall its standard driver seems to use a bit more resources than GT2/U.


The interface of SID Factory II seems a bit less claustrophobic to me.
Anyone got any idea about how much the driver for GT2 and the drivers for SID Factory II differs when it comes to CPU utilization? I assume it is heavily influenced by how many commands my song is executing during each frame, but anyone got a ballpark estimate?

Quoting acrouzet
The latency is something that doesn't seem to be avoidable (at least on my PC), probably because SID emulation is quite involved.


So would it be better if I was running for example a HardSID? I have an old one that is a PCI card I believe (bought in the 00's) so I can't use that, but if I could get hold of a more modern one that is running off of USB (if I'm not mistaken?) then it would be better? The SID chips should be fine so I should be able to transfer them to a new card/device.

Quoting acrouzet
The way to minimize the silence between notes can differ between editors, and it can depend on what kind of sound you want, as there are multiple ways to do it. In GT2/U, the least buggy way to do it is to set HR/Gate to either $01 or $82. This will result in only 1 frame of silence between notes. $01 will result in a "harder" attack, while $82 will result in a "softer/looser" attack. You can remove the silence altogether by setting the 1st Frame Wave to something other than 0/test, but that may result in glitches.


This is very helpful information, thank you.

Quoting acrouzet
Good luck composing! I'm looking forward to hearing what you come up with on the SID.


Thank you. It will probably take a while before I make anything decent enough, though.
2024-09-16 20:19
Tommy

Registered: Sep 2024
Posts: 11
Quoting spider-j
It's quite common these days to have tunes with 6-8 KB or even more in music competitions. Especially from the top notch artists that deliver complex compositions and sound design.

Well, I guess it's a good thing that I'm not in the club, then. =)

Quoting spider-j
Regarding editor / player: I found it very helpful to start with SID-Wizard on a real C64 and trying the PC emulation based trackers afterwards. It's way more easy to differ between user error and emulation limits this way. Even SID-Wizard in a recent VICE I think is a little more accurate than SF II or GT2 and its forks when it comes to the details. Because of this Cadaver made GoatTracker V2.xx Tweak Utility as an option to tweak your GT2 tunes on a real machine.

Ok, good to know. Thanks. I doubt that I'm gonna do anything technically fancy just yet, so any songs that I produce shouldn't be in much need of tweaking.
2024-09-16 20:20
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386
Quote:
Anyone got any idea about how much the driver for GT2 and the drivers for SID Factory II differs when it comes to CPU utilization?

Generally GT2 is a bit less heavy on CPU. That said, i wouldn't bother too much about it - they are both fine to use in demos (if that is the plan).
2024-09-16 23:28
spider-j

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498
Quoting Tommy
I doubt that I'm gonna do anything technically fancy just yet, so any songs that I produce shouldn't be in much need of tweaking.

When you already consider tinkering with hard restart that is "something fancy" in my book :-)
2024-09-19 08:04
Abynx

Registered: Jun 2024
Posts: 2
I use SDI, but I do use my breadbin and don't have full access to a PC.
2024-09-20 13:00
Stinsen

Registered: Feb 2012
Posts: 76
Cool, hey Tommy! Probably around 30 years since we spoke last, you would remember me under a different handle back then. ;)

Would really love to hear some SIDs from you! For the topic on hand I don't have much advice to give, but if you decide to go for GT I gathered a few of my song sources in a pack, could maybe be interesting:
Song Pack #1

BR,
Stinsen (AKA "Mindshadow" back in those days :D)
2024-09-20 13:06
Stinsen

Registered: Feb 2012
Posts: 76
Also, thanks for introducing me to https://csdb.dk/sid/?id=23441, still one of my favorite SIDs of all time! :D
2024-09-21 12:18
Tommy

Registered: Sep 2024
Posts: 11
Quoting Stinsen
Cool, hey Tommy! Probably around 30 years since we spoke last, you would remember me under a different handle back then. ;)

Stinsen (AKA "Mindshadow" back in those days :D)

Hi there! It took me a minute, but did you use to visit the Berzan party in Linköping competing in the chip music competition?
I dug deep into some old backup folders and found some old MOD files, does any of these names ring any bell? "dragged.pre-ed", "paradise lost" or "sparkle"?
And just a random thought appeared, did you use to set the black keys to flat notes in ProTracker? :)

Quoting Stinsen
Would really love to hear some SIDs from you! For the topic on hand I don't have much advice to give, but if you decide to go for GT I gathered a few of my song sources in a pack, could maybe be interesting:
Song Pack #1

Thanks, I'll check them out.
2024-09-23 06:01
Agemixer

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 39
One good choice would be Cheesecutter
CheeseCutter 2.9.0

It could be there's newer versions in development, i didn't check

(For the ones who have been waiting for Agentracker: While my hybrid tech AGT DAAW is pretty much frozen on development, for meantime i thought i could make a LMMS-to-SID converter instead, using some of my AGT algos on C64 side? I think that'd be less work, on other hand it needs a specific SID controller vst to be done, which will then be the only instrument noted in a real SID tune on "export", capable to multi/varispeed up to samples. Would be probably a completely different approach, probably never done before. Just one idea)
2024-09-23 20:09
Tommy

Registered: Sep 2024
Posts: 11
Quoting Agemixer
One good choice would be Cheesecutter
CheeseCutter 2.9.0

Thanks for the suggestion. Does this editor have any specific strengths over the others? It looks nice though, and it displays the patterns continuously (like for example SID Factory II) which is nice.
2024-09-23 20:52
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386
I wouldn't recommend JCH player to beginners :) Yes its more capable in theory - bit it also requires a deeper understanding of the SID and the player details.
2024-09-25 05:34
Bansai

Registered: Feb 2023
Posts: 49
Regardless of the editor used, SIDDump V1.08 is an excellent companion tool that (accurate enough for most purposes) shows what gets sent to SID.
2024-09-25 12:32
JCH

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 200
I wouldn't recommend using CheeseCutter today. It's not being developed anymore, and it uses more CPU time than GT2 and SF2.

As you suggest yourself, I would choose GT2/GTUltra or SF2 if it has to be a cross-platform editor.

GT2 is the more popular option and uses less CPU time than SF2. It's also possible to do multispeed as well as tunes for more than one SID chip, neither of which SF2 currently supports. (Multispeed is being developed for SF2 but is not ready yet.)

Choosing between GT2 or SF2 is mostly a question of what kind of track system you like. If you want the track numbers to be edited in their own table, with sequences displayed one by one, go with GT2. If you like all sequences stacked on top of each other with track numbers in the left side of each sequence, go with SF2.
2024-09-25 14:18
vincenzo

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 83
Couple of years ago I tested and made music with 12 different music editors. Once I tried SF2, I felt I'm at home and it immediately clicked with me. This means, to my workflow and brain-capacity SF2 is the closest and best thing. Which, in your case might be different.

I'd suggest you to give GT2, SF2, CC and SID-Wizard a testrun, and not only a testrun but use them for a couple of weeks. Then you'll have a feel for one of them, that's gonna be your tool for C64 music. See, if you settle for one that is not right but people said it's the best... well, then you will feel frustration every time you start making music.
(it's kind of similar to picking a headphone, people will give you thousand of suggestions, but at the end you will pick the one that is comfortable and good sounding enough for you)

All of the above mentioned editors have great documentation (also, a SF2 tutorial from me is long due and it's also WIP). If you have any question, we surely can find you the best person to help let it be about GT2, SF2 or any of the music tools.
2024-09-25 23:39
Tommy

Registered: Sep 2024
Posts: 11
Quoting Bansai
Regardless of the editor used, SIDDump V1.08 is an excellent companion tool that (accurate enough for most purposes) shows what gets sent to SID.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check it out.
2024-09-25 23:53
Tommy

Registered: Sep 2024
Posts: 11
Quoting JCH
I wouldn't recommend using CheeseCutter today. It's not being developed anymore, and it uses more CPU time than GT2 and SF2.

Ok, good to know.

Quoting JCH
As you suggest yourself, I would choose GT2/GTUltra or SF2 if it has to be a cross-platform editor.

GT2 is the more popular option and uses less CPU time than SF2. It's also possible to do multispeed as well as tunes for more than one SID chip, neither of which SF2 currently supports. (Multispeed is being developed for SF2 but is not ready yet.)

Choosing between GT2 or SF2 is mostly a question of what kind of track system you like. If you want the track numbers to be edited in their own table, with sequences displayed one by one, go with GT2. If you like all sequences stacked on top of each other with track numbers in the left side of each sequence, go with SF2.

I don't have a preference per say. I've mostly been tinkering with GT2, but I'll probably try SF2 out as well. SF2 seems to do a better job at using screen real estate.
Thanks for the advice.
2024-09-26 00:23
Tommy

Registered: Sep 2024
Posts: 11
Quoting vincenzo
Couple of years ago I tested and made music with 12 different music editors.

12? That's ambitious. :) I'm not gonna be quite that ambitious.

Quoting vincenzo
Once I tried SF2, I felt I'm at home and it immediately clicked with me. This means, to my workflow and brain-capacity SF2 is the closest and best thing. Which, in your case might be different.

I'll agree that the workflow seems nice in SF2 (at least when it comes to the pattern order list and the "sequences stacked on top of each other" as JCH expressed it).

Quoting vincenzo
I'd suggest you to give GT2, SF2, CC and SID-Wizard a testrun, and not only a testrun but use them for a couple of weeks. Then you'll have a feel for one of them, that's gonna be your tool for C64 music. See, if you settle for one that is not right but people said it's the best... well, then you will feel frustration every time you start making music.

Yes, of course you've got to feel comfortable with the instrument. I'll probably start out with GT2 and SF2 and see which one has the most comfortable work flow.

Quoting vincenzo
All of the above mentioned editors have great documentation (also, a SF2 tutorial from me is long due and it's also WIP). If you have any question, we surely can find you the best person to help let it be about GT2, SF2 or any of the music tools.

Thanks for the help, it's appreciated.
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