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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 838 |
2SID competitions.
Hello everyone.
I've only noticed for while that some various people are now starting to work on these 2SID (6 voice and 2 filter) songs. Although not as popular as standard SIDs, I believe these are quite fun to do, as you have more flexibility to include more than one filter and play more than one instrument which needs two voices, such as the $57 vocal trick for example.
Of course not everyone has a real c64 with an extended SID, but in today's world most people now use an emulator for quick viewing on music entries, which of course the emulators now have the option to include double SID emulation.
Up to now, it seems that Silesia Party in Poland will be holding the first 2SID competition ever in the scene. Would it be a good idea to start these 2SID competitions in general? Similar to those current SID compos that CreaMD usually holds, a 2SID section could be held as well.
Afaik, GoatTracker 2.61 Stereo is the only available music editor to compose these 2SID tunes, but soon there may be some similar editors on the c64.
What's your opinions on this? |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
I think it's a good idea. JCH editor has duo sid editing possibilities too. (At least one version has) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
There's also the Prophet64 with 6 track sequencer that works with the SID2SID implant. |
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Thunder.Bird
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 109 |
I'd love to hear more stereo-sids. Thumbs up!
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
as far as I'm concerned on some Polish parties in the past there was stereo SID competition already but this time we are trying to promote it wider ;-)
and as for programs - there is stereo enabled JCH (written probably by Glover/Samar , requiring +60k ram expansion (already implemented in vice)) and stereo DMC besides mentioned GT Stereo 2.61 and (unmentioned) 1.53
so... go on and submit some nice stereo tunes for Silesia Party ;-)
BTW I have a D64 disk with some stereo tunes runnable under VICE or real hardware with second sid @$d420 - anyone interested? ;-)
www.vulture.c64.org |
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
Quote: as far as I'm concerned on some Polish parties in the past there was stereo SID competition already but this time we are trying to promote it wider ;-)
and as for programs - there is stereo enabled JCH (written probably by Glover/Samar , requiring +60k ram expansion (already implemented in vice)) and stereo DMC besides mentioned GT Stereo 2.61 and (unmentioned) 1.53
so... go on and submit some nice stereo tunes for Silesia Party ;-)
BTW I have a D64 disk with some stereo tunes runnable under VICE or real hardware with second sid @$d420 - anyone interested? ;-)
www.vulture.c64.org
You bet! |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
oh I forget to mention there are 4 2SID tunes submitted to the compo already ,so there is enough amount of entries to go! :)
www.vulture.c64.org |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
7 tunes in 2SID compo so far - don't miss the opportunity to compete ! :)
www.vulture.c64.org |
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Tao
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 115 |
Quote: as far as I'm concerned on some Polish parties in the past there was stereo SID competition already but this time we are trying to promote it wider ;-)
and as for programs - there is stereo enabled JCH (written probably by Glover/Samar , requiring +60k ram expansion (already implemented in vice)) and stereo DMC besides mentioned GT Stereo 2.61 and (unmentioned) 1.53
so... go on and submit some nice stereo tunes for Silesia Party ;-)
BTW I have a D64 disk with some stereo tunes runnable under VICE or real hardware with second sid @$d420 - anyone interested? ;-)
www.vulture.c64.org
+60k expansion? Does it have support for something more common and sane, like a 1764? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
I will start doing 2 SID compo when I have machine with 2 sids. (That should be sometimes this year hopefully when I visit PCH / Unreal ) ;-) |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
@Tao: +60 is not compatible with anything other excpept +256VCS by Soci/Singular built with +60 compability in mind.
www.vulture.c64.org |
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
I think the main problem with stereo SIDs is that they all seem to require the second SID at a different address. It seems $DE00 or $DF00 or anywhere in the $D420-$D7FF range may be used, which is rather annoying if you want to play the tune on the real thing.
I think 2SID competitions would be a good thing, but how about only accepting entries which allow the listener to select the address of their second SID? |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 838 |
Quote:how about only accepting entries which allow the listener to select the address of their second SID?
Someone maybe could write a simple SID player on the c64 which would allow the user to select the address, and then write the new address values to the correct memory locations of the actual music player loaded. One of the downfalls would be what player was used by the composer, so the code may need to act the same as SIDID, detecting what player is used (i.e. GoatTracker Stereo, JCH player...) and gather the correct memory locations to write to so that it doesn't mess the player up. This would be quite difficult for normal SIDs due to lots of different players been coded over the years, but for 2SIDs it might be easier. And of course, not everyone has double SID expansion on their real machine (I don't anyway) but probably most people listen to them on emulator as most entries are nowadays downloaded. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
well.. making a buffered player on C64 which switches IO space to RAM , then copies sid-register writes somewhere else , turns IO on again and re-writes them to SIDs where they shold actually go isn't that difficult :)
anyway nowadays most ppl tend to use d420 (internal 2SID) and it's quite logical when you consider it's just another sid after that built-in.
on-cartridge SID expansion use DE00/DF00 which is not smart but simplier to build eventually :)
www.vulture.c64.org |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 838 |
Quote:well.. making a buffered player on C64 which switches IO space to RAM , then copies sid-register writes somewhere else , turns IO on again and re-writes them to SIDs where they shold actually go isn't that difficult :)
@Raf:
I was actually on about modifying the memory locations in the actual player (e.g. STA $D4EB ($d500) becomes STA $D40B ($d420) via coding in the lo and hi-byte address numbers in memory) which can be set-up outside play-time, but I understand what you mean :-)
Doing what you explained can be done whilst playing the actual music in run-time and that if you don't want to the player to be actually modified. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
http://silesiaparty.pl/ - here are results of 2SID compo
www.vulture.c64.org |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Looking forward to download them from CSdB.. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
they will follow soon , most likely today evening or tomorrow.
www.vulture.c64.org |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 838 |
Hmmmm, what category should these 2Sid entries be under? Should we just put them under as "C64 Music" or should we get Perff to add a new category? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1060 |
Since we have a million gfx categories, why not? :)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11149 |
don't forget to add fullscreen musician too!!! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036 |
If stereo music requires different hardware (=2 sids) than standard c64 music it would be fair if there was special separate cathegory for that. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
Perff , can you add that option , please? ;-) :P
BTW we are working on release disks right now so except them tomorrow morning in worst case :)
www.vulture.c64.org |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
stuff is released , see party entry :)
www.vulture.c64.org |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
so now, after the party, how do you guys like the stuff and
do you want another 2SID compo? :)
www.vulture.c64.org |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 838 |
Quote:
so now, after the party, how do you guys like the stuff and
do you want another 2SID compo? :)
www.vulture.c64.org
*sigh* Why else do you think I started this topic in the first place? :D :D |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 838 |
As many may have noticed, there have been some great appreciation of the recently released 2SIDs at Silesia 6 this year (especially Randall's entry). I don't need to mention other 2SID releases either. ;)
I hope now that this is enough proof why 2SID should be an important part of C64 scene these days, whether you agree or not. The possibilities are limitless! |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 254 |
Are there any players supporting 2SID with the option to adjust stereo separation to something more comfortable than just 100% left/right for the respective SIDs?
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 838 |
Quote: Are there any players supporting 2SID with the option to adjust stereo separation to something more comfortable than just 100% left/right for the respective SIDs?
Sidplay/w V2.6 supports 2SID and can mix both left/right to mono output pretty well. Not sure about Vice or other SID players though. |
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Cresh
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354 |
I would love to hear mp3s from the real machines. |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2898 |
The recent dual SID releases are quite nice! Love to hear some more in the future
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Fred
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 284 |
Perplex, for playing 2SIDs you can also use ACID 64 Player Pro V3.2. If you're using it in combination with JSidDevice (http://sourceforge.net/projects/jsidplay2/files/jsiddevice/) then you can set the panning for stereo as well.
Check out the players section (http://hvsc.de/players.htm#players) at the HVSC site for other players that support 2SID files. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3138 |
In the next release also digiboost is supported by the jsiddevice. I've never tried before (old pc with win98 couldn't run any java crap) but now I can say Acid64 is really neat and I'm not saying it just because it's by Fred ;)
It's crammed with handy features, give it a go. |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 254 |
Fred, ACID64 with JSIDDevice is looking (and sounding) good! Works fine in Wine, so I can use it at work and while coding as well. Thanks! |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
What is currently the most accurate 2SID player of Mac OSX? Any recommendations? |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1060 |
I'm using x64sc. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 228 |
tried acid64+jsidplay yesterday. works pretty well on the first look. but the volume of the played sid is really really low.. any way to change that? volume sliders are of course on maximum already.. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3138 |
strange, acid64 is actually LOUDER than sidplay 2.6 here |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 228 |
vice versa here. don't know if it's related to some java issue. can't raise the volume from the java channel in the mixer either as it's already on 100%. makes me remeber why i scorn java that much.. ^^ |
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Fred
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 284 |
Dano, I will have a look at the volume problem and will let you know when it is fixed. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 228 |
Fred, thankyou! In JSidplay i can crank up the Volume to +6db which makes the replay okish. So the original replay volume is already very very low. Can't say why though. Is there a way to raise the volume for java programms, or a global variable that controls the volume? |
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Fred
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 284 |
Dano, can you please test the volume difference with jsiddevice 1.4.1 / acid64 and compare them to sidplay/w 2.6? Jsiddevice 1.4.1 is based on resid-fp while the latest jsidplay2 is based on resid 1.0 which is not a good comparison with sidplay/w 2.6 which is also based on resid-fp. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 228 |
sidplay2.6w is my standard sidplayer here. plays fine with a really loud volume. the win7 mixer level peaks about at 50%.
the same sid via jsidplay/acid64 plays at about a third, maybe half, the volume and is deliberatly quieter in replay than sidplay2.6w. |
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Fred
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 284 |
Dano, there is a difference between jsidplay2 and jsiddevice. You can use ACID64 with jsidplay2 or with jsiddevice.
I just found the volume problem in jsiddevice. You can get the new version of JSidDevice 1.4.2 here:
http://www.acid64.com/download/jsiddevice/jsiddevice-1.4.2.zip
Also I recommend to use Java 7 for jsiddevice.
Let me know if it works for you. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3138 |
I can say that now it's even louder than before =)
now you can even set digiboost. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 228 |
that was fast, fred! :) here at work i'd say sidplay2.6w und acid64 with the new DLL are equally high in volume- very nice! will post how it performs on the laptop at home. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 228 |
on the laptop sidplay2.6w still seems to replay louder than acid64 and the new dll. yet the difference isn't that noticeable anymore. so it's fine for me now. only when playing the same sid in both players at once you may see a difference in levels.. |
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Fred
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 284 |
Thanks for testing. I can't hear a difference here. It could be that the little difference you see/hear is related to different resampling setting or the slightly different implementation. E.g. dithering is used in JSidDevice, I don't know if Sidplay2 is doing this. The default resampling setting for jsiddevice is decimate and for Sidplay2 it is I think resample. You can configure this in the preference menu in ACID64 and set it to resample. I don't think this should affect the volume but maybe you will notice a difference.
If your soundcard is supporting multiple devices or you have multiple soundcards, make sure you select the same one as sidplay2 in the settings menu of JSidDevice (right click on the JSidDevice tray icon). |
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Fred
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 284 |
I've now tested it on my laptop as well and it appeared that the Java Sound Audio Engine was selected as device (when you use Java 6 this device is available) which has a lower volume for some reason. Make sure you select the Primary Sound Driver and you will notice a higher volume. For JSidDevice 1.4.2 the primary sound driver is the default when you didn't run any jsiddevice version before. If you install Java 7 then you don't have this device anymore and don't have the problem. |
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Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 228 |
installed java7 on the laptop now, too. thought i had it installed, but the browser install just installed the 64bit variant. after installing the 32bit variant i now can choose the primary sound driver in jsiddevice.
now acid64 plays even louder than sidplay 2.6w! yay, nice!
what i'd wish now was to make the gui a little more nicer and more features! :) like the ability to create different playlists and maybe even share them via internet (a nice idea deekay came up with).
one thing you should think of is displaying the stil info in a sizeable panel right of the volume bars. there's so much unused space. :) |
