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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
What editors are PPL using now?
Hey. So I haven't coded a chiptune properly for C-64 since the mid 90s (I've used a hardsid in midi, a sidstation, and (gasp) quadrasid emulation but all mainly in recorded work). But now I am thinking it would be fun to make some new tracks, and some old friends are starting to ask me for them...
So, the last time I really did anything it was in JCH Editor (v17-19 range, I think... it is all foggy now). I'm curious to hear what people are using now and what enhancements have been made. I'm sorry if this is a redundant topic somewhere else --
I've dabbled with GoatTracker. Found it a bit off. But one thing I did like, that wasn't present in JCH editor was the sort of ability to vastly modify the instrument within the pattern data. For example, changing filter mode/cutoff/resonance within the voices vs. having to make one or several sweeping instrument definitions.
I had messed a little bit with multi-speed editing (x3), which at the time was a pain.
I'm also pretty interested in some of what has happened with C-64 + sample playback. I saw an impressive demo of something like a MOD or XM playing on C64, and then being post processed through the filter.
Anyway, curious to hear what people are using and why. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
you are asker of this nr 12738744356! :-)
SDI, sid duzz it, used by stainless steel, grg, me, others
JCH 20.G4/G5 - used by dalezy, Drax
SID Factory by Laxity
X-sid by Jeff
Asterion sid tracker
those are the best
i kid you not, fuck the rest, if your life is too short.. |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: you are asker of this nr 12738744356! :-)
SDI, sid duzz it, used by stainless steel, grg, me, others
JCH 20.G4/G5 - used by dalezy, Drax
SID Factory by Laxity
X-sid by Jeff
Asterion sid tracker
those are the best
i kid you not, fuck the rest, if your life is too short..
You can add me to the SDI, Sid duzz it aswell.. :-) |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 849 |
there's also:
DMC (yeah I know it's so 90's, but there are still good composers who still use it... e.g. PSycHo)
John-Player (quite limited, but can still make great tunes out of it if you can do it right... check some of Reed's tunes for proof.)
Polly-Tracker ... if you like to play with sample-based stuff.
you can also PM The Human Code Machine for an experimental Sid player mixed with MOD player sampling... though that AFAIK requires you to use... GoatTracker (used by me, Linus, Jammer, Randall, Hein, Ne7, Cadaver, many others...)
I also made a tracker... but that's a piece of shit and must be forgotten. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: there's also:
DMC (yeah I know it's so 90's, but there are still good composers who still use it... e.g. PSycHo)
John-Player (quite limited, but can still make great tunes out of it if you can do it right... check some of Reed's tunes for proof.)
Polly-Tracker ... if you like to play with sample-based stuff.
you can also PM The Human Code Machine for an experimental Sid player mixed with MOD player sampling... though that AFAIK requires you to use... GoatTracker (used by me, Linus, Jammer, Randall, Hein, Ne7, Cadaver, many others...)
I also made a tracker... but that's a piece of shit and must be forgotten.
god have mercy on their souls (dmc users, john player)
pollytracker ? use a pc!
i have yet to actually do something in HCM's player..
didnt find the time..
yes, shit must be forgotten :) |
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
Only #12738744356?
Thanks for all the info! |
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
It's all about ninjatracker, yo. (also: tfx 2.99 ftw) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
and cyber tracker :P |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
pollytracker is win.
------------------------------------
http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
UTFS (Use The Fucking Search) or try one of these:
1. witch music editor/player is nice to start with
2. What's your favorite composerprogram?
3. The worst music editors?
4. Best trackers for classical sids
5. LIVE playable tracker?
6. c64music editor for pc?
7. Music Editors - The Holy Grail
8. good programs for a newcomer? |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I like SYNC. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
i made this: Tracker Preview 0f
totally unuseable though :o) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Basically, it boils down to a few good editors.
Goattracker on the PC.
SDI on the c64.
JCH derivates.
Laxity's latest editor.
Or one of Jeff's recent editors.
My weapon of choice being SDI ofcourse :-D
Another question is, do you want a DUR based editor or a conventional "Tracker" style editor.
The rest, well, I wouldnt bother with.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
computech (or sonics mod called "x-tracker") is nice too, imho ... if you can deal with those ugly .dur based editors that is :) |
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
@mace - I used the search. As much as there was plenty of discussion on what trackers a new c-64 composer might like I was specifically into hearing what people used and why.
I know this is somewhat redundant, and that I could download every editor and screw with them and decide for myself, and use previous posts for hints. But you know, I figure some people like to be social and sometimes that means talking about the same old shit.
Anyway... I used JCH editor a lot and have used other tracker style editors since ProTracker c. 1990. So as much as I started using those hex-laden messes like Future Composer and VoiceTracker I felt much better using JCH's. The main thing I was hoping for appears to have been realized in some of the hacks/updates to JCH editor, and Laxity's editor. That is - more direct channel-based control vs. table pointers and ... not having to decouple commands from note-on/instrument setters. Mainly I'd love to be able to set filter, adsr, perhaps pulsewidth, vibrato, slide on the pattern itself (override the current wavetable) and not be forced to do so through static lookup tables. The tables approach is very efficient but also very constricting.
I'm somewhat interested in how multi-speed and sample playback have improved, but equally in how low-speed may now be done intentionally.
So I was mainly curious not just to hear people's declarations like 'SDI is the best' but rather why ... 'SDI is the best because it gives better control of X compared to JCH derivatives', etc. That and a few people flaming me and kick banning me for not coming up with a wholly unique conversation.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quote:people flaming me and kick banning me for not coming up with a wholly unique conversation Aahhh, come on!
We're just keeping up our standards! ;-) |
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uneksija
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 45 |
I did my first C64-tunes in Cybertracker, but found it limiting (it could be really great, it has the best user interface and pattern effects etc. ever, but it has limited note memory and lacks multispeed etc.). After that I searched for the perfect editor for a long time... Then I finally realized I should stop searching and instead just simply try some editor that seems nice and make a tune. So I learned the basics of Sid Duzz It over a weekend and I've been using that editor ever since. It's tracker-style, and I like how the note and sequencer editors work. It's up to 16x multispeed, and it has a powerful instrument editor. It's a very good editor, and has only a few things that could be little bit better or added. It's also still in developement, so who knows what great features it will have in the future. There's also a version of SDI that has a sample channel with great features, but unfortunately this version is unfinished, difficult to use (unless you are a coder) and has no packer (I think).
About sample features in C64 music editors in general: Unfortunately it seems that there still isn't a proper editor with a sample channel and a packer. However there's some tool by Padua you can use to add digis. And of course there is always for example Rockmonitor ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
tunes with samples will always need special treatment though if you want to use them in demos or something like that. |
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uneksija
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 45 |
Quote: tunes with samples will always need special treatment though if you want to use them in demos or something like that.
Yes of course - but I personally simply would like to make a tune with digis someday. It could be used easily as-is or in a music collection for example. I guess I should try Rockmonitor someday :) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Sequencer : I cant say much about JCH, never used it.
But SDI has this 4th fx channel which is a complete bliss. You can use it f.ex. to control the filters for all channels
(something i abuse alot). Also plenty of control from within the sequences to alter ADSR/filter and slide to your hearts content. |
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The Human Code Machine
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
Quote: Yes of course - but I personally simply would like to make a tune with digis someday. It could be used easily as-is or in a music collection for example. I guess I should try Rockmonitor someday :)
Simply wait until I release my MDG-Modconverter at breakpoint. It's a lot easier to compose sampled music with your favourite Amiga or PC-Tracker;) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Then again I am not completely sure in what way it makes sense to play the tune back on a c64? Of course it was nice to begin with, as a proof of concept, but now... Why not just compose it on an Amiga, and play it back on an amiga aswell? The amiga is good for that. ;)
Now, of course, this isn't a question with a once-and-for-all answer, and if people find this rewarding, then everything is fine I guess. I'm speaking more from my point of view here.
@THCM: How much rastertime, circa, is available for other things when the modplayer routine is running? |
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psych
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 141 |
Quote: god have mercy on their souls (dmc users, john player)
pollytracker ? use a pc!
i have yet to actually do something in HCM's player..
didnt find the time..
yes, shit must be forgotten :)
Jan I love my little DMC :) It's not easy to use,but once you know how to work on it you can compose like on any other tracker. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
DUR editors are for machochists! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
have to agree with rambones there, .dur based editors are the most painful stuff ever invented =)
Quote:But SDI has this 4th fx channel which is a complete bliss. You can use it f.ex. to control the filters for all channels
and grg stole that idea from my tracker! DAMN HIM! *g* |
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The Human Code Machine
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
Quote: Then again I am not completely sure in what way it makes sense to play the tune back on a c64? Of course it was nice to begin with, as a proof of concept, but now... Why not just compose it on an Amiga, and play it back on an amiga aswell? The amiga is good for that. ;)
Now, of course, this isn't a question with a once-and-for-all answer, and if people find this rewarding, then everything is fine I guess. I'm speaking more from my point of view here.
@THCM: How much rastertime, circa, is available for other things when the modplayer routine is running?
@Frantic It's a matter of taste and I really *love* the old intro tunes from M.O.N. and all the other composers. My converter makes life a lot easier to combine the best of both worlds! Compose your song with Goattracker and ModPlugtracker and use my converter to make an executeable song. Test it using WinVice or transfer it to your c64. You can mix the original sid sound with 8 bit waveform samples and the best is, that our routine works on every Sid and you don't get any distortions like normal $d418 mixed tunes. Even filtering the sid or the samples is possible! I know that we used old Amiga mods in our demo, but we didn't have time to compose our own songs. We were happy to finish our demo at the party and to at least release something as a proof of concept. The only real tune using my converter is the compo tune made by Fanta and it was made in a hurry. There wasn't enough time to include our own original samples.
There are a lot instruments which simply sound better using samples like drums, percussion or even the human voice. The sid sound is very good for a fat bass or a nice lead, so why not combine it?
The needed raster time depends upon the features you need for your tune. For example 2 sid voices + 4 8bit waveform digi channels mixed at 7800hz with screen enabled takes almost the whole raster time. Playing a normal 4 channel amiga module using $d418 output with 7800hz mixing takes about 230 raster lines, leaving enough time to do some stuff on the screen like in our Vicious Sid demo. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
@THCM: Okay.. I didn't know the player supported SID voices too, since I thought (due to the mods in the demo) that it was mainly a straight mod-player, only with some of the "effects" stripped away. That changes things a bit, yes. (In fact, I was a bit tempted to do such a player myself, since I got some ideas about how to maybe do the mixing even faster. :)
I agree with your "why not" argument. It is valid.
By the way.. Are the samples REALLY 8bit? Isn't it something like 6bit samples mixed to a 8bit output signal? ...or is it 8bit samples mixed to a 8bit signal (with some accuracy loss due to the mixing, so the samples are not strictly speaking output as pure 8bit samples due to four of them being mixed)? Not that it matters a whole lot, but I am just a bit curious.. :) (I know about the general technique, invented by SounDemon of coz, and why that is 8bit (for one sample).) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
i personally also wouldnt mind to see a formal explaination and documented source for that method.... tuning "sam" a bit is tempting :) |
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The Human Code Machine
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
Quote: @THCM: Okay.. I didn't know the player supported SID voices too, since I thought (due to the mods in the demo) that it was mainly a straight mod-player, only with some of the "effects" stripped away. That changes things a bit, yes. (In fact, I was a bit tempted to do such a player myself, since I got some ideas about how to maybe do the mixing even faster. :)
I agree with your "why not" argument. It is valid.
By the way.. Are the samples REALLY 8bit? Isn't it something like 6bit samples mixed to a 8bit output signal? ...or is it 8bit samples mixed to a 8bit signal (with some accuracy loss due to the mixing, so the samples are not strictly speaking output as pure 8bit samples due to four of them being mixed)? Not that it matters a whole lot, but I am just a bit curious.. :) (I know about the general technique, invented by SounDemon of coz, and why that is 8bit (for one sample).)
@Frantic I'm very curious how you want to achieve faster mixing? I really tested lots of different approaches and I didn't found a faster way. The mixing routines depend upon the complexity of the desired features like the degree of frequency freedom and or volume control for each voice. Join the beta team and just take a sneap peak at the replayer source.
Ok, I only want to provide the tool and let the composer decide what's best for his composition.
Therotically the c64 should be able to output 12 bit samples, but I think it's too slow to mix and output more than 1 or 2 voices at a time. My routine supports 3 different mixing qualities. 6 bit samples mixed to 8 bit output, 7 bit samples mixed to 8 bit output and 8 bit samples mixed with 7.5 bit accuracy to 8 bit output. The last and highest quality mixer is only available in the source and not selectable in the converter, but the difference is that big anyway.
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The Human Code Machine
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
Quote: i personally also wouldnt mind to see a formal explaination and documented source for that method.... tuning "sam" a bit is tempting :)
SounDemoN explained the new waveform digi routine in the latest vandalism news #50. Just take a look there. If you have questions about my mixing routines send me a PM. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
the very much more important question is though: did you convert zakazak.s3m already? =D |
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The Human Code Machine
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
Quote: the very much more important question is though: did you convert zakazak.s3m already? =D
No, it would need too much rework. I think it should be possible to include all the effects in the tune, since it only uses 2 voices, but at the moment the mixing routines don't support frequency or volume effects. At first someone had to convert the tune to normal Protracker format. |
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
@stainless steel: That master effects 'channel' does sound really useful about SDI. Will definitely give it a look then. I haven't really touched JCH editor in ... 15 years or so. Holy shit I'm older than dirt.
@THCM: Your player sounds cool... especially for people doing live music or using a c64 in a studio environment. If it were only a MOD player it'd be one thing, but being able to mix the two sounds pretty amazing, albeit too heavy to mix with much visually for demos. The only big drawback is detached composition in 2 editors breaks up workflow. I suppose you could sketch ideas in a multivoice/VSTi tracker (like renoise) using emulated SID then recreate it for MOD/GT natively... I did something like this for Gameboy Advance music so that I could get past some laborious setup in the default tools.
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The Human Code Machine
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
@Sequencer Yes, I know. Workflow should be a lot easier, but it's still better than using Rockmonitor or to compose digi-tunes using an assembler. To make a composer's life a bit friendlier: compose with your favourite tracker using six voices and use the pattern converter to convert from .mod to Goat format. There's still a lot of finetuning to do. Perhaps it's a good idea to ask Cadaver, if he has time to include my mixing routines into his Goattracker. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
you could ask him, but i can predict that he wont :) he is too much of a purist to add samples :) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
...but Goattracker is open source, right? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
it sure is, go ahead :) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Hmm so if I understand this MOD-Converter correctly, you technically have to compose 2 tunes
(MOD version / SID version) and "merge" them to a final product if you want to hear the complete tune ?
Sounds like one hell of a bitch to compose like that. I sure couldn't, hats off to those who can work like that.
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The Human Code Machine
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
Quote: Hmm so if I understand this MOD-Converter correctly, you technically have to compose 2 tunes
(MOD version / SID version) and "merge" them to a final product if you want to hear the complete tune ?
Sounds like one hell of a bitch to compose like that. I sure couldn't, hats off to those who can work like that.
Yes, that's correct, but as I wrote earlier it's possible to use a tracker like program to compose your song using 6 channels and then split it. Then use the pattern converter to import the 2 sid channels into Goattracker. If you prefer using only one tool at a time, you can also use my modified Jesper Olsen player and compose using dasm assembler ;) just like the old legends did 20 Years ago. |
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
It may be easy enough to hack GoatTracker to accept some sort of MIDI sync, then synchronize it to a modern tracker (renoise, madtracker, etc.). Would be a lot less effort than retooling the entire GT application.
Still cool, even if the workflow is tedious.
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
as someone who works with both, renoise and goattracker, what exactly would you want to achieve if you would and could combine both?
even though i'd like some reverb and spazzy delay in my .sid, i'm sure that both my c64s would disagree in the end. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
BLeh...
Best would be make resid in goattracker, a vst, then use renoise, and convert the xml renoise song into c64 notedata and append it to the c64 player.. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
It's sad that many people have gone handicapped concerning creation of c64 music. Nothing seems to be good enough for them to work with. And OFCOURSE that can be used as an excuse for not being able to do decent music ;-P
There are already lots of good players and editors around. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Agree with Jeff. Some people talk the talk, but they are too affraid to walk the walk. Become skilled in using one of the many good editors around and do your thing. |
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The Human Code Machine
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
I totally agree with Jeff and Hein. I'm a coder and no musician, but there's no One-Click-Music generator and if you want to use all the tricks and special stuff, then you'll have to do a lot of handwork. If your old enough, then you'll know how we did things in the early days. There were nearly no cross developing tools and most of the stuff was hardcoded, but we were always happy with our results and had a lot of fun doing them. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Hey man, i can do what i want in the editor i use (SDI), but its 2009, and a lot of things could be better with a more intelligent editor.
Why be a maschocist and make music in assembler, just because its 'hardcore', when you can use a modern tool with tons of options ?
Dont be silly.
If we should follow your strategy, people shouldnt even be using a pc to make sid, or goattracker, coz its a violation of 'being cool'..
Pah.. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Each to his own. I still dont think i would be able to compose like that. I'm lazy. Even if that means not sounding "decent".
Now, let me get back to my one-click music editor.
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Rambones: *What* could be better? What kind of missing features are we talking about that stop us from composing good sid music? I pitty anybody who feels masochistic about creating music in a decent c64 editor because I for one genuinely fucking enjoy it. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting Linuscreating music in a decent c64 editor
Technically speaking, GoatTracker doesnt qualify as a "c64 editor" :-D
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Talk to the hand, dear Joe! :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
What could be better ?
1) volume, filter, pulse envelopes - drawn with mouse (line, point based), with option to preview result, by playing a sequence looped.
2) arpeggio editor like synths have, or some like to call it a note pattern. raise and lower bars intuitively to make C-D-F-F# pattern to use, then execute this pattern anywhere inside a sequence.
3) synthesizer: sound engine that generates different kind of sounds, based on your choices, cursor/mouse controlled.
well those were the main 3 things i had in mind.
also... sid speech synth ?
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 465 |
that would take out all the joy; also, that would prevent us from finding our own styles, based on how we feed the editor of choice with numbers |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Nothing will prevent you from making your own style, thats plain nonsense.
You do what you do, because you like what you make.
The things you dont like, you dont use. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Well, in that case, I don't always like shit :-) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote: What could be better ?
1) volume, filter, pulse envelopes - drawn with mouse (line, point based), with option to preview result, by playing a sequence looped.
2) arpeggio editor like synths have, or some like to call it a note pattern. raise and lower bars intuitively to make C-D-F-F# pattern to use, then execute this pattern anywhere inside a sequence.
3) synthesizer: sound engine that generates different kind of sounds, based on your choices, cursor/mouse controlled.
well those were the main 3 things i had in mind.
also... sid speech synth ?
Hey,
1) I don't quite get it. Putting in a couple of hex values is *much* faster and more exact than drawing stuff with a mouse.
2) Wavetables and patterns provide that kind of functionality already.
3) You are free to generate any kind of sounds the sid is capable of with existing editors. How should a "sound engine" like that work? "Hey, I want an accordeon like sound, so let's put OSC XY on voice one and OSC ZZ with detune amount F on voice two!" or something? The fun (for me anyway) is to do everything from scratch. I wouldn't bother touching a "sound engine" like that. Again, I am glad I don't have to use a mouse at all.
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
3) That's exactly where the fun is, Linus.
Some sort of generator for this would simply suck big time and also reveal 100% lamenes from the one using it :-)
The sid is fairly simple. either do some experiments or simply use a few braincells to figure it out. :-)
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VIC
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 73 |
Quote: Well, in that case, I don't always like shit :-)
But sometimes you use it? |
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
Quote: It's sad that many people have gone handicapped concerning creation of c64 music. Nothing seems to be good enough for them to work with. And OFCOURSE that can be used as an excuse for not being able to do decent music ;-P
There are already lots of good players and editors around.
Etc. re 'the tools are good enough'. Sure they are, but it always nice to progress and push both the limitations of hard/software and of the usability of editing environments.
This doesn't preclude doing good work and there are plenty of good tools out there... and creative/technical limitations are always part of the game.
I've always seen it as an organic part of working in this sort of medium. You exploit it for a while until you reach an artificial limitation, one that is usually imposed by a lack of tools or insight, then you invent a way around that limitation. Its not to say somebody couldn't struggle through making very nice music in the old Basic SID Editor if they wanted to...
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
Quote: as someone who works with both, renoise and goattracker, what exactly would you want to achieve if you would and could combine both?
even though i'd like some reverb and spazzy delay in my .sid, i'm sure that both my c64s would disagree in the end.
Nothing sonically. With THCs sample routine you can mix multiple sample voices with SID specifically from GoatTracker. So it was just a suggestion as to how one may sequence the sample voices (which end up needing to be MOD format pattern data) and SID voices, retain the SID voice programming (not to have to recreate it, since in most cases this part would be more complex vs. sample voice programming), and to be able to do so in a working environment that will sound close to the end result (synchronized playback).
It has/had nothing to do with using effects on top of sid or other renoise bells and whistles. |
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Sequencer
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 13 |
Quote: Rambones: *What* could be better? What kind of missing features are we talking about that stop us from composing good sid music? I pitty anybody who feels masochistic about creating music in a decent c64 editor because I for one genuinely fucking enjoy it.
There aren't really missing features. There are a lot of great tools to compose SID music.
But there are always useful enhancements...
I had to compose some very limited music for Gameboy Advance using MuSyx -- using the built in gameboy PSG voices and 2 lofi sample channels. The editing environment was pretty tedious, but it did have one interesting feature which was that the instruments were in macros (like c-64 wavetables) but those macros also had some operations which were logical (random branches, conditional branches, etc.). So if you wanted to do random or somewhat complex instrument modulation you could do so very simply vs. hand-coded variations. You could do interesting things with this like for example changing the filter or PWM tracking depending on octave or current beat. So stuff like this could be interesting in place in a SID editor, not that anybody 'needs' it or everybody would utilize it (or that it wouldn't take too much work to make a replayer pack and handle it efficiently).
Also I've always found the absolute reliance on a wavetable for chord data to place an annoying but constantly repeated limitation on workflow. It should be possible to make a 'chord template' in a wavetable whereby the actual chord values (the transposition offsets) would be defined in the pattern (the music) and not pre-baked into a wavetable. This way your wavetable only needs to define 'how' an arpeggio works (which waveforms at which steps and for how long, and how to repeat this, and at what speed) and your music pattern data dictates the actual chords. You don't find yourself with huge wavetables full of major and minor and suspended chords in different inversions, and you don't have to jump into a wavetable editor every time you want to lay down a new chord or adjust your composition a bit. You'd be freer to lay down chords then go back and tweak how they all sound globally, etc. For example play a sidstation or quadrasid...
So, casting aside any simpler editor things like a visual gui (prophet64) there is plenty of room for tweaks that could make composition more fluid (for some).
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:I had to compose some very limited music for Gameboy Advance using MuSyx
my condolences has to go to everyone who came even close to MuSux =P |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting sequencerAlso I've always found the absolute reliance on a wavetable for chord data to place an annoying
SDI has this "Apreggio Table" feature, where you can define Arpreggio programs in a table and then access them from the pattern editor.
You can also still put the arpreggio notes directly into the wavetable program of the instrument if you like.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I'd love to see some SDI tutorial video, like the one I have for CubaseSX...
The program looks like it should be close to the perfect composing tool yet I fail to understand how it works! |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
You can catch me on IRC #c-64 if you would like to ask anything about SDI.
I'm not the best SID Composer out there and some things about SDI still puzzle me a bit, but I've been using it since 2006 for about every day.
I was thinking about doing a screenvid of me making a tune one day.
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: I'd love to see some SDI tutorial video, like the one I have for CubaseSX...
The program looks like it should be close to the perfect composing tool yet I fail to understand how it works!
SDI really is one of the easiest editors there is, because of the 'logical' key choises to use, and the good manual - as i say to anyone starting: do the example sounds in the manual, and you will soon be making your first tune!
yeah, and instruction video, could be cool to make.
I just need to hook it up, so i can record my speech, along with the VICE mpeg recording. Then it should be nice.
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Archmage
Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 185 |
I second Mace here. A SDI basics video would be _very_ much appreciated. I have had some excellent tutoring from my man Stainless Steel, but long IRC sessions is not easy with my current family situation. And before you say RTFM: I already did, and still... |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
Tutorial videos? Blasphemy!
I remember the good old days when Twoflower and I spent countless hours trying to decipher the KEEPITSECRET!!1!-version of the JCH-editor. Maybe that experience is the reason I am still stuck to that particular tool. :) |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
...not forgetting all the JCH-editor tunes that were haphazardly depacked by hand just to gain some (if any!) understanding of that damned thing - and just think of all those times it simply crashed in a mysterious way, shutting off one voice. At times I recall the warm thoughts of that editor as being "the green zeroes of random mystery, just waiting to be uncovered". :-) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I remember the good old days when I could sit behind a computer 80 hours a week, without a wife & kid complaining...
Today I have to use my time a little more efficient ;-) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
I remember 1987, sitting at night with soundmonitor by Hülsbeck, pressing F7 to record, keep on for 1 hour, save, pack demo, copy disk, out it was! over and done in 1 night!
Now, its endless bytecoding, finetuning, vibrato depth my ass etc. :(
:-) |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 465 |
you should have seen the endless bytecoding, finetuning, vibrato depth my ass by Jammer. out it is, and done in one night. a matter of practice, i suppose.
:)
now let's see how the 20 km run in biathlon world championships goes, Bjoerndalen or Sikora, or Tchoudov perhaps |
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Archmage
Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 185 |
What Mace said. I have like two to three hours designated leisure/demoscene time a week, so I'll jump on every shortcut I can get when it comes to learning tools. |
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Kickback
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97 |
Quote: What Mace said. I have like two to three hours designated leisure/demoscene time a week, so I'll jump on every shortcut I can get when it comes to learning tools.
I can agree with this totally! Having 3 kids, work, wife leaves little time these days. Thank god for a PC and many calculation done on there and quick compile time.
I am 100% PC due to time restraints these days, which I am pretty sure many people that do have kids/job call this a blessing LOL!!!
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
get divorced, quit your job, sell your kids. it IS that easy!
=P |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting rambonesvibrato depth my ass etc.
Quoting randallvibrato depth my ass by Jammer. out it is, and done in one night. a matter of practice, i suppose
That sounds wrong on so many levels.
What is it with the Vibrato(r) and your asses, guys ?
Are you trying to tell us something ? ^_^
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quote:get divorced, quit your job, sell your kids. it IS that easy!
I would if it made me so much money it would compensate for all the losses... and that's what's holding me back ;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
you can always sell your wife+kid to michael jackson! |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
He's broke, so that won't work. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quote: Quoting rambonesvibrato depth my ass etc.
Quoting randallvibrato depth my ass by Jammer. out it is, and done in one night. a matter of practice, i suppose
That sounds wrong on so many levels.
What is it with the Vibrato(r) and your asses, guys ?
Are you trying to tell us something ? ^_^
no one has ever vibrate the depths of my ass :P i really beg your pardon :P |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
May I suggest this demo for your pleasure? |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
A lot of details... like expression done with slides, vibrato etc, is 1000000% more interesting than soundmonitor crap ala "daaaaaaaaa daaaaaaaa daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa da daaaaaaaaaaaaa"
!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Hey Jeffobabe, "Da Da Da" with Trio, was a HUUUUUGE hit!! |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
rambones: you were 40 back then aswell? :-) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
FIGHT!!
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
this is not fair, since jeff is a famous name, because in dynasty tv series there is a jeff colby! |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
well, afaik "jeff" is more often used as a gayname than "rambones" is... so it's a loose-loose situation... |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
BullSid! Now exclusivley featuring, Jeff's DEEP ASS VIBRATO!
Quoting rambonesjeff colby
Wasnt that a gay porn movie actor ? |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
no, that's jeff stryker |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: no, that's jeff stryker
How.... do you know this ? :) |
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booker
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
Quote: Jan I love my little DMC :) It's not easy to use,but once you know how to work on it you can compose like on any other tracker.
Looking after all those years I've spend with DMC I can tell just one thing: any decent tracker, like JCH or SDI is way better for editing than DMC. I would go for SDI these days (v2 now available), as JCH or DMC are not being developed for ages. SID Factory has a complicated style of sound editing, and Jeff will finish his editor probably in next century anyway :)
Actually I was never using DMC in the proper DUR. way. I used DUR style only to compress the tune size, because if you use DMC with a tracker-style patterns (giving a lot of spaces between the notes) then the tune grows really rapidly. Also the idea you can see what's going on at all channels at once is very convenient. Much convenient than in DUR. But that's aparently a matter of the taste ;)
The pattern sequencer is a clever idea in DMC also easy switching between the subtunes is cool, so you can prepare bits and then just mix stuff up in the main tune.
As to technical capabilities for sounds, you can do the same things with trackers like JCH,SDI,SID Factory anyway. And you can filter only one channel with DMC :-) And you have static vibrato in the instrument, and there's no separate arppegio table so you have to make extra instruments for arppegios, and each pattern can have a different size so you have to always pay attention to that, and the commands before the notes or patterns can make you a headache, and you don't see what's played, and sometimes packed tune sounds different from what you do in the editor, and legato functions weird, and if you have one empty pattern then after saving you'll loose all other patters which are after it (same for saved tune), and sometimes it hangs after displayng the disk directory, and sometimes it detunes the arrpegios for some reason, and by default it's one note down on each channel so you have to start your tune with TR+01 (unless you're PRI or Syndrom who somehow are able to use eg. D note displayed even if it's really C#) and and and....and you have to love it to use it :)
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
trackers usually compress to "duration" style
like:
I01 c-4
- +++
- +++
- +++
that's 4 tracker steps, which would usually not take more than 3 bytes after packing. :-)
When a tune sounds different after packing, it can easily be due to the player NOT having a sid-buffer, which means there's a different amount of cycles between storing values to sid registers, BEFORE and AFTER packing.
I'd say SDI and a few of the newer editors offer some extra things that you don't have in DMC.
Calculated finetune for each instrument, or use it in an instrument subtable to do special shaped vibratos and such,
which you can also do along with other things, changing filtertypes, resonance during a sound, changing ADSR during a sound.
Much more flexible system for defining hard- and soft- restarts.
all these extra things helps the composer to make his music sound different from others, or exactly the same, if you are interested in replicating other people's tunes. :-)
I bet Geir Tjelta could tell you more good things about SDI than I can, it's a damn powerfull player and editor - But I have chosen to use my own players and editors.
Bullsid doesn't have an arpeggio table, but you can somewhat easy use the same sound to do different arpeggios with.
Booker: And I will finish BullSID some day, but still, everyone wants customized editors... So simply code your own
and make it JUST like you want a c64 music editor to be.
:-) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Yes, having your own customized editor/player rules. That's for sure! ;) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
All those short comings of DMC are easily fixed - switch to SYNC. |
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booker
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
Quote: All those short comings of DMC are easily fixed - switch to SYNC.
Naaah....
Quoting Jeff
Booker: And I will finish BullSID some day, but still, everyone wants customized editors... So simply code your own
and make it JUST like you want a c64 music editor to be.
:-)
I know you will Soren. In your own time you will.
I can't be bothered with coding my own editor. I would get completelly white and then bald afterwards. :> |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
@Booker: That explains my hairdo then :-D |
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booker
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
Quote: @Booker: That explains my hairdo then :-D
:-D |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
Quote: Yes, having your own customized editor/player rules. That's for sure! ;)
Too bad I've only made customized players and still no editor. :( Well, at least there's still something to do before it's game over. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting Danebefore it's game over. Whats this game over talk about ? dont get us worried Stellan!
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Archmage
Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 185 |
Quote: Quoting Danebefore it's game over. Whats this game over talk about ? dont get us worried Stellan!
I second. Whussup? |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
Oh, someone told me the scene is dead. ;D |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
@Dane: The scene is NOT dead.. even more of the old scene guys return. Geir Tjelta is back, which I am very pleased about. :-)
There is still so much to do. :-) |
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booker
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
Quoting Dane
Oh, someone told me the scene is dead. ;D
Yeah, and LCP will prove it! ^^ |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
the scene has died anc has been reborn quite a few ti-
times now.its a constant refining process.darwinism at its best :)
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 849 |
i heard that some atari/ZX guys had took interest into our scene recently..? ;) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
I've even heard rumours about a certain ex. amiga guy who started raping 8580s around early 2005 ... no, sir, it ain't dead yet. |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 849 |
Quote: I've even heard rumours about a certain ex. amiga guy who started raping 8580s around early 2005 ... no, sir, it ain't dead yet.
Not to forget that he also raped 6581s too in 2004, I guess they weren't his type after so many orgies! ;) heheh. |
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booker
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
Latest breaking news: SDI definitelly roxx |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting bookerLatest breaking news: SDI definitelly roxx But, that's old news!
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
and the new features in SDI rock pretty much. had the honour of letting Geir Tjelta show me how it works. The midi works perfectly. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I wouldnt mind getting my hands on that new SDI either.
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