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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
PhoenixSID project
I'm always so sad when I hear a person who likes & keeps C64 alive with hard work, passes away suddenly..
This happened in 2007 to a 29 years old man called George Pantazopoulos, and a promising project called PhoenixSID.
http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/projects:phoenixsid_65x81
You can listen the recordings at the above given webpage.
This project is about modelling SID on modern FPGA hardware with analog filter using external capacitors like real SID.
This is not software emulation, but a real hardware SID-implementation of its paralelly working inner units programmed via HDL (Hardware description Language) more precisely, MyHDL.
The FPGA 'program' can even be simulated then 'netlist or wiring' can be transferred to the FPGA from memory..and voila - it's working instantly..
I was very much influenced by this project and maybe will work on it somewhen..
Imagine if this comparatively not so expensive FPGA could be used for 'real' analog filtered SID-sound in a PCI card or connected by USB...and the main point here is not disassembling and depriving many C64s of their SID-chips..
It won't be the real SID but this project is not for dying....anyone can continue if interested and has talent..
Hermit Software Hungary |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
Even have some idea about going further with hardware SID-imitation:
What a pleasure would be if we could have a hardware-level SID-Player in our pocket, similar to today's MP3-players.
The appropriate FPGA with enough logic cells could be programmed to hold a SID and a 6510 inside, and maybe a Flash-RAM inside or outside the chip to store .SID files.
The FPGA also could contain USB1.0-compatible port, and drive at least a simple LCD display for song-titles/numbers.
For the needed Voltage-supply (3.3V maybe) would be enough three AAA sized 1.2V accu-cells or a complete Li-ion accu with a Voltage-regulator. 1MB flash could store around 100 SID files to play continuously..
So at the end there would be no need for converting all of our favourite SIDs to mp3 before we can listen them walking in the streets...(not to mention analog-filtered uncompressed SID quality vs. lossly-compressed MP3 quality)
Hermit Software Hungary |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
Guess what I found at Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qAZ_l31sEU
And guess what chip: FPGA
Now it just needs a small PCB and CASE....:)
Hermit Software Hungary |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
there is also other toy, made in Poland ;)
http://www.swinkels.tvtom.pl/swinsid/
though I don't think any of those projects will spread - they require quite a lot of work to put together and they won't sell in many units so they will not commercialize :) |
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FATFrost
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211 |
Plus the fact that nobody wants a swinesid either. ;) |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
Yeah, just we should keep in mind that SWINSID is still software-based emulation realized via serially working microcontroller. It has many new functions compared to SID, but for listening SIDs purpose, it won't give the same as real SID (as you can read on the page). Instead musicians can use it to reach new waveforms and more accuracy, etc. that they couldn't reach on original 6581 or 8580 before.
The commercial part is similar in terms as my 3SID tracker, which isn't used (reportedly) much by musicians, as if they somehow have 3SID equipped machine, they even couldn't show their work to others...these specially aimed products can't be spread commercially, as they differ from the 'mainstream' (here I mean original C64 equipped with SID).
PhoenixSID seems trying to approach the SID on an exact way as possible.
I have no experience yet, if FPGA solution would be cheaper or not at production phase, this also would significally affect the commercial part of production.
But personally I would prefer realtime hw-emulation with real capacitors, and I would pay for a unit equipped with it ,if that really beats SID quality without much 'noticeable-by-human' differences.
Hermit Software Hungary |
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taper
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 119 |
I think the PhoenixSID project sound just awesome. And ofcourse the guy behind it had to go die on us...
I too feel very disturbed when c64's are stripped of SID chips just to power a HardSID, SIDStation or similar device. An FPGA implementation of the SID together with an external analog part would be ideal for those uses.
Also, I bet most of us have far more working c64's than working SID chips these days. Perhaps the FPGA SID could be interfaced to a normal SID socket too, as spareparts for all those c64's lacking sound.
Sure, it's not original hardware, but a lot better than nothing, and done right the sound would probably be not more different than that of different SID revisions and/or individual SID chips. |
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linde
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 47 |
How about skipping the analog part and just interface a DSP chip running reSID-fp? That sounds more future proof, IMO. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
realistically any re-implementation of SID is more expensive than real chip as for now ;)
there is also another one on ATmega8 uC:
http://www.roboterclub-freiburg.de/atmega_sound/atmegaSID.html
this one "crossed" with swidsid's c64 bus control would be chapest though obviosuly not exact replacement... I'm not quite into analogue electornics, but I wonder if it's possible to make cheap re-implementation of SID filetrs using few opamps. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
BTW I just found that the guy responsible for 65x81 died:
http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/users:george_pantazopoulos:memory..
what a pity... |
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clonK
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 65 |
Quote: How about skipping the analog part and just interface a DSP chip running reSID-fp? That sounds more future proof, IMO.
The analogue part is one of the main draws for me.
I think this PhoenixSID project is onto something :) |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
Some news: I recently bought an FPGA devkit (Digilent Nexys2 with Xilinx Spartan 3E core).
Among some experiment project I might pick up the existing material of this amazing PhoenixSID project.
(Anyway, in the future I'm planning to design my own computer-architecture with this FPGA, both hardware and software. This will be based upon similar concepts as C64 and other computers of 80's 90's, but with modern CPU/RAM/Video/Audio capabilities. The difference to C-One and C64 pumping projects is that it won't be compatible with anything, just the realtime and reliability, and special hardvare units will be taken as an idea of computing. Massive parallel/multitasking with many CPUs and AI neuron modules instead of overclocking and dissipation. But this is not the topic, not even the forum for it. I'll do it as opensource and create a webpage for it soon...)
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hermit |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
(about the offtopic from Hermit: I am looking forward to see this project) |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
Some update on my researches for SID reverse engineering.
PhoenixSID sources don't seem to be shared anywhere.
I asked someone at MyHDL page to be so kind sharing the sources with us if they got any from George Pantazopoulos in the past. However as I haven't got reply yet, I'm afraid this 'quest' of mine won't be successful.
The great news is that there are some other projects I just found about SID reproduction at hardware (FPGA) level. There's even a Verilog (HDL) source code shared at the page:
http://skrasoft.com/blog/?p=222
http://blog.kevtris.org/?p=32
http://blog.kevtris.org/?cat=7
Also there's some effective reverse engineering of the SID die here:
http://visual6502.org/images/pages/Commodore_8580_SID.html
http://oms.wmhost.com/misc/
I took some notes while reading the interview with Bob Yannes. Maybe with these guys together, or using their solutions as idea, the FPGA SID becomes an alternative/replacement for the real, died chips. I checked the prices of smaller FPGA chips, they seem to be quite affordable around 15-20 Euros. Comparable with spare chip I saw on Ebay once for around 20-30 Euros. Of course this is still only an option for real enthusiasts not for some kind of mass production, as a complete second-hand C64 still costs less...
For the FPGA to operate on a SID-sized PCB, a cheap EPROM/Platform-FlashROM is needed with the layout-bitfile of the chip, and of course the filter capacitors, a little voltage regulator cirtcuitry, TTL conversion, opamp/transistor sound amplifier, and we're almost in...
(There are also non-volatile FPGA chips with Flash memory used instead of SRAM to store wiring, but I haven't checked their prices yet.)
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Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 423 |
What about the SID emulation in the 1541U2? Isn't that open source? |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
Thank You very much for the info.
I somehow missed the news about 1541 Ultimate. This SID is indeed open source and is hardware based emulation. I could download the sources with svn, and they're in VHDL :)
Great newz! |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
In case one missed the Wikipedia reference, there's V-SID project :), btw. no analog capacitor circuitry involved afaik.
But the point is it have good description at the page:
http://silvertouch.pagesperso-orange.fr/VSID.htm
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