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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
Hard Restart?
Hi, can anyone explain me please what this Hard Restart is all about and why does it seem to be that important? This confuses me. |
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ice00
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 54 |
The ADSR of SID has some kind of bugs (delay and bundary bug) that will make the sound to go muted when playing a "new note". You can avoid this by selecting some values of ADSR instead of others, but if you want to not worry about this, you can use some technique that makes the new notes to start correctly in every case.
Hard restart is a tecnique that can be implemented in many way: looking into old post you will find something about even a sexy-hard restart.
However somethimes it is even mentioned Soft restart when it is implemented as based tecnique (like releasing the gate two frame before the new note start), comparated to the more sofisticated in the hard restart.
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
I don't find hard restart very important anymore.
And often I even don't reset oscillators.
This gives less unwanted clicking.
One just needs to be a bit more carefull with ADSR settings and I believe that using a sid-buffer in one's music routine will make things just a bit more stable.
The good thing about avoiding HR is that things become more lively, especially when doing melodies. Furthermore you can trig notes faster and in general you will have less soundloss between trigged notes.
Still, I can understand why some people want to use HR on things like drums. It is easier that way.
:-) |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
So I don't really have to use this Hard Restart thing when the music and instrument are sounding alright then? |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Leticia: Exactly, but it might require a bit of work concerning ADSR settings of your instruments. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Still, if you are new to the sid, you just ought to not think about it, there is plenty of other things to learn first. |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
In fact there are many things that I still have to learn, but due to some musical knowledge I'm already able to do some melodies. I play the piano a bit ;) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
more info here:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/forums/?roomid=14&topicid=27340&show.. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Yeah.. There are also a bunch of other threads dealing with hardrestart on csdb. Just search for "hardrestart" in the forum search, if you're interested. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
imho this whole hardrestart thing is a bit overrated and blown out of proportion. its just one of the many details that may or may not be useful depending on what you are planning to do. and there are many cases where NO hardrestart is the preferred option (unless you *want* that mechanical stakkato like expression) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Traditionally... To have access to hardrestart in the player one is using or better yet, actually understanding the ADSR bug and how hardrestart works is what separates the lowlife scums and lamers from the elite and the sages in the world of SID. Hence, using hardrestart is a scene sacrament that must be blown out of proportion if order is to be maintained. I vote for continuation of this ritualistic practice. |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
Just another question..
What music programs do support entering Hard Restart ADSR Values for each Instrument? I want to try out everything a little bit to hear the difference. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
I cant tell you coz I'm no musician, but if you've listened to a lot of 'old' (pre 90) and 'new' (post 95) sids you would know the difference. newer sids sounds much more cleaner bcoz of HR. Try some of the badder Hubbard tunes and then some 'The Syndrom', and you'lee see (hear) |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 849 |
Quote: Just another question..
What music programs do support entering Hard Restart ADSR Values for each Instrument? I want to try out everything a little bit to hear the difference.
In GoatTracker (I know you're using SDI primarily, but it may still apply if its available in that editor)...
The Hard Reset ADSR is the value shown under "HR: 0000" on the top of the screen. Just to make it clear, that Hard Restart ADSR is a GLOBAL setting used by each instrument. Instruments only have a "flag" to use HR or not. In Goattracker instruments, it's the "HR/Gate Timer" value:
(If you know a bit about binary:)
00000000
^
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|_____ Hard-Restart flag (Most significant bit)... 0 = on, 1 = off
So in essence...
$00-$7f = Hard-Restart on
$80-$ff = Hard-Restart off (or soft restart)
If using $80-$ff, then the AD and SR values in the INSTRUMENT are used as the "Restart" setting, otherwise the global HR ADSR value is used.
If you want to try examples, I would start off with values "$02" and "$82"... so you can hear the difference.
Hope this makes sense. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
@Leticia: There may be several, but I only know about one. That is defMON, used by Goto80 since a number of years, but still unreleased to the general public. Most editors I have seen work the way Conrad describes. I think some of Jeff's editors/players had some more features along these lines, including a choice of different "types" of hard restart. Never really got deep into those editors myself though, so I don't know exactly what options that were available: if setting of hard restart ADSR values on a per instrument basis was included or not. |
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iLKke
Registered: May 2012
Posts: 29 |
SID-Wizard seems to have per-instrument HR settings.
Not that it is hugely relevant if you just want to see what it's all about. |
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ice00
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 54 |
Quote: Just another question..
What music programs do support entering Hard Restart ADSR Values for each Instrument? I want to try out everything a little bit to hear the difference.
In JITT64 I set up various mode for setting hard-restart, like changing the order of sid register initialization that can change the produced sound.
You can expand it more as in instrument definitions you can change ADSR as you want many times, so you can even program the HR in some exotics way over the classical one (it only need to insert this into the beginning of instrument instead of at the end).
Soft hardrestart is even possible using the gate release in end of notes. |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
I've implemented in JCH NP25. Thanks to Jeff I'm actually starting to get the hang of soft restart now, and I can recommend it for leads and arpeggios.
Then again, it's not going to make a tremendous difference in your tunes if you stick to any of today's common music editors. So instead of chasing after the perfect instruments, just go and make some music! :D |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
i tried out sid wizard, but i didn't like it very much and it has this annoying clicking sound while playing the demo songs, don't know how to get rid of this. i've just given jch a try and i like it :) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
SDI should be able to do it. |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
Leticia: As I've written in posts/comments, SID-Wizard is RC/beta version yet, the Hard Restart (and other features) is still going through development. The aim is to be able to set any type of HR. If you don't like other else aspects of it I'd be glad to hear what they are specifically. And don't forget, SID-Wizard is open-source, anyone can help, just PM or e-mail me and I'll solve to give you full SVN access at sourceforge...
JCH and SDI are good editors & players, and X-SID is excellent too if you get used to their interfaces.
This is a great topic, the info/mystery about HR should be collected in one place as much as possible. Playing around with SID-hacker I found many types of HRs in different tunes, I'll try to collect and post them in a structured way. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: Leticia: As I've written in posts/comments, SID-Wizard is RC/beta version yet, the Hard Restart (and other features) is still going through development. The aim is to be able to set any type of HR. If you don't like other else aspects of it I'd be glad to hear what they are specifically. And don't forget, SID-Wizard is open-source, anyone can help, just PM or e-mail me and I'll solve to give you full SVN access at sourceforge...
JCH and SDI are good editors & players, and X-SID is excellent too if you get used to their interfaces.
This is a great topic, the info/mystery about HR should be collected in one place as much as possible. Playing around with SID-hacker I found many types of HRs in different tunes, I'll try to collect and post them in a structured way.
codebase would be a good place to collect HR info.
http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=start |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452 |
IMHO, separate testbit and gate bit and adsr manipulations in time and space and be sidtorious! |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Sometimes it's hard to restart composing after a while of doing nothing. |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
What's harder for you, Jeff, making some nice instruments or is it all about creativity and the right sounding melodies??
I tried now a couple of programs and X-Sid works best for me :) Does anyone have more Demotunes for X-Sid? I still need to learn much and Demosongs are good to begin with ;) |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
Quote: Sometimes it's hard to restart composing after a while of doing nothing.
Amen. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Leticia: well, I was just kidding a bit. But getting a good idea for a catchy piece of music is probably the hardest thing for me. :-) |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
I have the same problem sometimes. Playing existing songs on the piano is easier for me than writing my own catchy song ;) |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
After a decade+ of always starting with a bassline/beat/random chords I've started to build my tunes around melody and lead, only using the occasional octaved arpeggios for harmony. Then, when I think I've got it right I tweak the instruments/arpeggios/add drums etc. I don't know if it's a process for everyone or if it results in a specific kind of tune, but I'm very happy with the work process so far. |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
Starting with the melody at first worked several times for me, maybe it will also work for others ;-) |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
I think the most important for me when I restart composing after a long break (which might be the case now) is 1st to listen as much inspiring music as possible and my brain collects the emotional alphabet elements and little nuances, expressions, tricks unconsciously while being entertained at the same time. These collected bits add up and will be useful when it's time to compose. Unmaintained knowledge and creativity fades out slowly, we're humans...but when restart is successful, we might find a new unique face of ourselves, that's the good part of taking a rest...
My process for composing is similar to what Dane said, I started with bass many times (maybe due to bass-guitar being my main instrument), and then building chords/melody onto it and wherever the melody requires, I alter or change the underlying rhythms and chords. Main melody is the leader most of the times for me, especially on C64, because that is what people usually hear and remember the most, and solo sounds are among the most beautiful outputs that SID can produce.
I recall we had a long topic specifically about composing:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/forums/?roomid=14&topicid=82716&firs..
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
Thanks for posting that link, Hermit. Most of what was posted in that thread makes a lot of sense and nicely puts into words how I try to think when composing/arranging/sequencing.
I'm quite oblivious to music theory and know what I know from studying trackers and other people's tunes. So for me a minor chord will always be 037 and major 047. :D |
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DRAX
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 225 |
Well, a 037 isn't necessarily a minor and 047 isn't necessarily a major ;) |
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iLKke
Registered: May 2012
Posts: 29 |
Music theory is actually super easy, all you need is this diagram :D |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
Quote: Well, a 037 isn't necessarily a minor and 047 isn't necessarily a major ;)
Haha, ofc. :) I just thought it illustrated how illiterate I used to be. |
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DRAX
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 225 |
Well, music theory isn't that important when it comes to composing - it might makes things a bit easier but it's good to know a little when communicating about music... At least that is my experience... |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
@ Drax: I really like your tune 'Resolution'. What element did you start with, melody or bass and what was your inspiration for this nice tune? |
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DRAX
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 225 |
Hey Leticia: Thanks alot. I am actually not sure what I started with - it came from a certain mood that I was in which is perhaps most explicitly expressed in the chords... Mood => chords => melody :) |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
I still find it a bit difficult to make melodies similar to 'Resolution', but the particular sound of the c64 and the nice tunes are some major reasons that I still use my c128 today ;)
After visiting the Vibrants Website I found out that the author of jch music editor stopped all his musicial activites, but why?? |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Leticia: I guess JCH lost his interest in it, but also got more uninspired at the end. I think someone said something like that he was doing "granddad"'ish music at the end.
But who knows.. One can hope he finds the interest again some day. :-) |
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Leticia
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 21 |
I believe it's just a matter of what kind of music you're in. Apart from the classical pieces you'll learn on the piano you will play modern songs you like or compose music in your favourite style. |
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Hermit
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208 |
So do I wish to hear some masterworks from JCH sometime again :) But that's just a dream at the moment. For me his tunes are very unique, I haven't heard anything like those tunes, they have high variety in/between them, he was a versalite composer on the C64. (One of my favs are Hacktrick -especially its solo- and Chordian.) True knowledge & sense of music and technology he has :) |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Quote: Well, a 037 isn't necessarily a minor and 047 isn't necessarily a major ;)
True, they can be both as both the sync and ring bits are engaged in 37 and 47 :D |
