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Forums > C64 Composing > Composing music in general, techniques, hints and tips

2011-02-10 11:46

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

Composing music in general, techniques, hints and tips

What I really miss is a topic about music composing in general. If I haven't found an existing topic regarding this, but if we have any, let me know about it.
(There are many topics in Composing section, thanks god there's a good seraching engine. However it would be great to have more categories inside 'Composing' for easier browsing.)

I want to start this topic about the music composition itself, which is always a mystic topic and there's no real perfect method of teaching it in schools even nowadays.
On one hand this is the beauty of composing, that it cannot be described consciously in its entire form, and one can never say he learned everything.

I want to write a book/article in the future about the logic and lexical knowledge behind music composition, as there aren't a lot of comprehensive books or webpages that give us a complete picture and directions to improve.
One good (and possibly a standard) is Arnold Schoenberg's 'Fundamentals of Musical Composition', which gives a lot of understanding to composition itself (not music theory!).

If you have knowledge and experiences which you want to share with composers all around, feel free post your replies into this topic... and at the end we will have something at CSDB which will be a guide to refresh the spirit and knowledge of musical composition.

What this topic would exclude:
-The music theory (literature about chords, staff, etc..) - many books and videos can be found all around on the net.
-The use of trackers and analog synthesis techniques of SID, which is another topic, bit related of course...and has been discussed already afaik.

I'm looking forward your contributions with tips as well as questions/replies - discussions :)

Hermit Software Hungary

... 72 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2011-02-16 15:48

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

Hello again

Look what I found. This reading about Haydn's and Mozart's approaches to composition holds many information which we were talking about. I especially like the 'sea' metaphor, similar to the 'ocean' principle of Necropolo :)

http://www.integralworld.net/dallman2.html

I didn't see a great interest in soundcloud....meanwhile I was thinking about other solution.
Either on C64 or based on a special Homepage I would construct a system similar to soundcloud, but with 2 differences/workarounds:
-Materials won't be uploaded, just linked. That way we might be able to avoid infringements of copyrights, as the links are just pointers to other webpages' contents which take the responsibility for sharing particular songs. (The possibility for different formats (SID,XM,WAV,MP3) is in plan too..)
-There will be possibility to leave timed comments on a tune (just as in soundcloud), but I would go even further: Why not including a piano-roll, so we could demonstrate the different parts not just by text, but by audible extracts too. (The webpage based piano roll could be used to type in notes, and to play them even with hovering over the mouse.)

I won't be so active for a while in this thread, but I'll follow your comments regurarly. I need some time to gather new information on composition, and work out the system that we can use for sharing our musical thoughts and experiments...

Hermit Software Hungary

2011-02-16 17:21

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

Anyway, I have a conclusion after the many posts and after reading from Schoenberg's book, and after thinking a lot about melodies of great tunes inside.
I would like to outline a musical theme construction recipe step-by-step, which must have been used similarly many times a good composition was born:

1. Inventing/Defining a very basic phrase (e.g. 1-2 measures/bars). Good thing if this is a short melody coming from soul, but has definistic/characteristic still playful melody and rhythm too.

2. Construct a chord progression (e.g. 4..8..16.. bars) for the theme, which is in (or related to) the tonic key what was defined by the melodic phrase at the 1st step. While choosing chord-progression directions (cadences), you might need to keep the mood in mind what the phrase in 1st step would express, and extend or push forward the musical thought.

3. Now, as you have a chord progression, you can play with the melody chunk created in 1st step in a more confident way than without chords. Play with it by copying/repeating it, and when needed, adjust it to the given (degree of) chords in given bars. (The easiest change might be transposition here). You can do many changes to the melody-chunk modifying some or all pitches or playing with it's rhythm and note-lengths. However be careful, sometimes too much modification/variation of the melody-chunks troubles/overcomplicates the melody.

4. You have a whole theme with chords and melody. You can add the counterpoint melodies or/and basses, etc., or you may select going forward with the tune, when you have new ideas for the continuation. The latter way will anticipate in the sequential structure of the song, you can make new themes for chorus and other parts. It's up to you in what order you arrange them in the end.

I'll try to compose a tune following this way, and we'll see whether I was right in the order the thing should look like...I'll share the phases with you, when I upload it...

2011-02-16 18:39

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

Groepaz, ok i have a violin you can try.
Linus, ok and i know

Hermit, youre recipe, is a recipe, its more or less how things are done.

Some do it by schooling, some do it be deliberate choise, and most just do it.

i think i cannot use all the theories for anything personally, i do what feels right. i have my own vibe, and i am trying to be myself.

Music is a language, not a theory.

i am so skizo :) i both believe that you can learn from some basic rules, and i believe it not, because i am self taught.

Every time i have followed any rules, my life has gone the wrong way, i feel that everything and everybody is holding me down, its like a virus, they want to format me to a certain pattern. "be like us, be normal, do like us, be one of us" etc. its now 25 years into the sidwave and it hasnt happened yet.

i will check back, hermit.

2011-02-16 19:01

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147

Quote:

Groepaz, ok i have a violin you can try.

haha =) i tried (actually took some lessons when i was 10 or so) and i can assure you it would be horrible =) maybe a could squeeze out a real out of tune scale or something like that =)

2011-02-16 20:14

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

/MUSICIANS/H/Harries_Jan/Bachs_Violinconcert_in_C.sid
/MUSICIANS/H/Harries_Jan/Violin_for_Zoids.sid

22 years is between these 2 tunes.

now listen. you have never really listened the last tune.
i know you havent.

do it now.

2011-02-16 20:32

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

Now listen this:
http://soundcloud.com/sidwave/jan-harries-skizofrenia-1

Any theory behind this will be hard to explain, but listen how it changes mood all the time, while keeping a core nerve.
That all i can say about that.

2011-02-16 20:51

Digger

Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 422

How about tremolo guitar (volume+vibrato sweep), tremolo arpeggio or dubstep like modulated bass? Have you came across such SID tunes? (I can hear you Linus!)

2011-02-16 20:53

jssr67
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2011
Posts: 33

Quoting rambones

Music is a language, not a theory.

Absolutely true. But to every language, there is a theory called grammar, dealing with syntactical aspects. And another one, dealing with semantic aspects. For being able to express oneself in a language, both knowing the theories or having good intuition helps.

Quoting rambones

i am so skizo :)

...yes, we had that issue earlier in the thread ;-)

2011-02-17 00:23

NecroPolo

Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231

Quoting Hermit

I especially like the 'sea' metaphor, similar to the 'ocean' principle of Necropolo :)

http://www.integralworld.net/dallman2.html

Good read. Composing through inspiration, outside-in direction, tossing the mind into a raw creative state, then organising ideas into a construction, realised as blocks and patterns (C64 heritage perhaps)... All makes sense to me. Thanks for the link!

2011-02-17 01:28

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

Quote: Quoting rambones
Music is a language, not a theory.

Absolutely true. But to every language, there is a theory called grammar, dealing with syntactical aspects. And another one, dealing with semantic aspects. For being able to express oneself in a language, both knowing the theories or having good intuition helps.

Quoting rambones
i am so skizo :)

...yes, we had that issue earlier in the thread ;-)

Its just that: its impractical to apply too much theory to music, because it has no limits.

With a synth that can do almost endlessly different sounds, and the fact that you can mix as many tracks down as you want, the limit is gone, so only theory left, is to control your head to make music that reminds you of inspired stuff, or certain styles, or what you wanna make.

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