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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
Unfair charts voting results
Hi, allow me just to quote the best idea I've read so far about voting system:
Quoting enthusiAnd Im not growing tired of suggesting to just count all votes > 8 accumulative for gfx,music,code.
6 * vote 10 = 60 points
20 * vote 8 = 160 points
etc.
Maybe someone who is (even ;-) more into database stuff than me can play with CSDb votes and give this approach a try?
Last time I checked that manually I was pretty content with the overall results.
Seems to be very fair option and as well relatively easy to implement using already existing data.
Even then bugs like 16th place of T.C. with 4 votes (36 pts. total) vs. 16th place of Hayes (46 pts. total) vs. Scortia 18th (138 pts. total) would be solved automatically ;)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
imho such system is BS
100 * 1 -> 100
8 * 10 -> 80
etc
some people should simply understand that unless a lot more people vote on a lot more entries... all magic on the numbers is a pointless exercise. |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
But in this case votes are 10 max. You can't vote 100 here. |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
/double post/ |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
you didnt get the point. the point was that an extremely bad, but for some reason popular, entry (100 people voted 1) would outweight an excellent, but unknown, entry (8 people voted 10). |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
Well, 100 people voting 1 here is basically unrealistic.
But you have a point even though few people here vote very low, but mostly on poor productions people don't vote at all.
For current CSDb charts you'd probably need to set 20 or smth votes minimum to qualify for charts in order for it to be more fair. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
if such system would get installed, you can be sure there will be some entry voted 1 by 100 people. if not more =) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 679 |
Groepaz: read again please. You missed the point DRAMAtically ;-)
The suggestion asked for votes > 8.
Where 8 = $ANY_FUNNY_NUMBER_THAT_REFLECTS_A_POSITIVE_VOTE
Still many 8-votes outweight fewer 10-votes.
And I think that is a good thing. Apply it and see. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
ah so that involves even more pointless magic then ?
so what about these 1 and 2 and 3 votes in your system then? why would only > 8 qualify?
really, this all yet again boils down to: more votes needed. period. trying to get meaningful results from 10 votes is futile, no matter how much magic tricks you apply. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 506 |
solution is simple. announce a date to remove hidden vote option. down voters will automatically change or delete their votes before that date.
1) lamers won't be exposed (even if they should).
2) many products/groups/sceners will reach a closer value like they deserved.
of course there is nothing to do about the ones who are shameless to downvote publicly. let the evil take care about them later. ;)
forget about math. that's the solution. |
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STE'86
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
exactly why is it more valid to have 20x8 votes than it is to have 6x10?
It seems to me that such as system, would in effect only positively affect "known" current "faces" on here who could call upon lots of associates and fellow group members to advance their standing.
so "unknown" freshers whose work could well be streets ahead of the "faces" get penalised.
also it is a matter of historical fact that MANY 25 year old entries on here are also far ahead of many current ones. as one sees when a piece of art appears on the "radar" thats 20+ years old and you get the "my god thats amazing" comments. but only 5 people have ever voted on it.
a new fair system?
sorry. think again.
Steve |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
Quote:solution is simple. announce a date to remove hidden vote option. down voters will automatically change or delete their votes before that date.
and i will remove mine as well, and so will many other regular voters.
no, making the votes public does not solve anything. it's out of the question too. |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 236 |
The problem seems, to me atleast, still be that too few takes voting serious. There is around 100.000 releases here (?) and roughly only me and Ed holds a margin of 10% coverage of those (in voting), which of course has taken a serious amount of time to review and reflect upon.
Now if everyone took it equally as serious, instead of dismissing the number of amounts of votes per release as a possible guideline I'd guess that the levels would even out and hopefully be more accurate in the end.
/James |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 257 |
The now retired Internet Top 100 SF/Fantasy List of books used something they called diffused average to rank the books. Something similar might work well here. It's mainly to avoid new entries shooting straight for the top spots, though.
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 257 |
How about ranking entries based on Bayesian estimates?
Obviously with a smaller value for m than the one they use on IMDb. |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 236 |
I don't know how the figures work over at Bitfellas Artcity, but it takes only 1 vote (instead of 5) to give a total figure, which of course changes during time. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Booker, here's the best solution to any worries people have about unfair charts:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/userpage/rightbar.php
Uncheck all the charts, save changes, worries gone! |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
What... is this about the voting on CSDb?
/me puts hands over ears and says *whawhawhawhawha* |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
listen to joe. i'd also add that those people who dont vote enough generally take votes far too serious =P |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 228 |
hehe, it may be a bit unpopular, but i like the voting as it is. i just wish (agree to joes comment) that more ppl make use of it, and do vote (i for myself am the no3 in the voting-statistics just behind joe and ed with 2440+ votes)
and yes, keep the possibility of anonymous voting, because its a good thing. also in democompos you vote anonymously - and there is good reasons for that. so what.
downvoting and namevoting and whatever was always part of the szene. we gotta live with that i say.
well, when i think about it... there really is ONE thing i dont like too much. lets take knoeki as an example... let him become the best coder of all time - he will most likely never get rid of the low votes he actually has - so he could be better than hcl or others, but never beat them in the charts eventually. so maybe votes need to be reset sometimes. i know, thats not a real option - because no one is willing to vote more often for the same production / szener, so it would end up with lame charts again. thats the only problem i see in the actual voting-system.
ah yes, and i still dont really understand the formula :) when i use a pocket calculator, i have an average of 7.8 as a graphician i think. but csdb says its 7.4... but i can also live with that fact. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote:ah yes, and i still dont really understand the formula :) when i use a pocket calculator, i have an average of 7.8 as a graphician i think. but csdb says its 7.4... but i can also live with that fact.
That's because of the weighted voting I think...mid-range votes count a little bit more than extreme votes (10 and 1 for instance) towards the average. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 647 |
Here are a set of ideas that could work:
Only those that Sign up to and Log into CSDb can download files.
Only 1 file can be downloaded at anyone time.
Once a file has been downloaded, a second file cannot be downloaded until the previous file / release has been voted on.
No hidden votes. All votes are made public.
A vote can be edited, never deleted.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I say, get rid of voting completely.
Add tagging instead! |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Dejavu? are we having this conversation again or am i getting a little senile ? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
Quote:
Here are a set of ideas that could work:
Only those that Sign up to and Log into CSDb can download files.
Only 1 file can be downloaded at anyone time.
Once a file has been downloaded, a second file cannot be downloaded until the previous file / release has been voted on.
No hidden votes. All votes are made public.
A vote can be edited, never deleted.
i have a better idea - whoever starts whining about the voting, will be switched into voting mode and cant access the forum nor the comments unless he voted for an additional 100 entries. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quoting Stainless/ParamountDejavu? are we having this conversation again or am i getting a little senile ? Both.
You know what?!
LOLCAT VOTEz FORrrr CLOSINk DIS FRED!
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
\o/
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 236 |
Quoting Groepaz
i have a better idea - whoever starts whining about the voting, will be switched into voting mode and cant access the forum nor the comments unless he voted for an additional 100 entries.
;D! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
apropos, hearing "omg non public votes are evil" from people who frequently edit and delete their comments just makes me laugh. hard. and then i point fingers and laugh again. |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 236 |
I for one edit or even delete my posts when the language or content gets useless or is far off the line, thinking things over. I even change my votes occasionally, although it might take some time when I see things in a different light of its context. Seriously, is that a laughing matter Groepaz? Be careful with those fingers, we all have to :) |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 257 |
A couple of ideas on what could make people vote more:
1. Make voting easier/quicker by moving the rating dropdown menu to where the Vote button is now. Select a number in the menu and your vote is cast. As a bonus, your current vote will be immediately visible on the release page, so you can see that you have already voted and whether that vote still reflects your current opinion of the release. The current voting function isn't that arduous, but every little bit counts, especially if we want to make people to go on voting frenzies.
2. When a user logs in, display a link to one (or a few) random release(s) for which the user has not yet submitted a vote. For those of us with long periods of scene inactivity this could also serve as an excellent way of discovering gems we didn't even know about.
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 647 |
Having seen the source image behind Monroe 6569 has altered my original views. While Diggers take on the original is proportionally accurate, he has failed somewhat in recreating the sparkle present on Monroe 3000 / Noeeko. The sparkle really makes the original what it is. |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 236 |
Well, I believe the voting system at Bitfellas-Artcity is really nice, you get a random pic of images (may it be demos, tunes, artwork etc on this page for example) and you select a vote graded from 1-10 or change it, just underneath the products snapshot, you can change your mind and you can comment on it, may be that the submitting is deadslow, since they have to acknowledge the piece and possible tags(usually 1 days wait until you see the new stuff - both good and bad). It's a nice layout and very quick whilst being logged in. If you are just browsing, you swing across names, votes and comments without interference.
*Edit oh, and they lack that... The possibility of editing things without shouting to admins :) Haha, CSDb is good. Whiners! Just make sure your things doesn't leak and that you won't GFX-bomb them with fonts :D
Now vote, vote more and... be happy |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 506 |
0.75 * publicVotes + 0.25 * privateVotes = anti-democratic but fairer result
p.s: jk ;) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Not enough people vote, its not 1987 anymore, so just get rid of the vote system completely, and have a UP/DOWN thumb.
On the frontpage, show the entries with most UP thumbs.
For each category.
"Popular demos, popular music, popular etc. etc."
"Hot or not!", End of story.
People will never start to vote more, its over, that was the old days, its a remnant of the old elite thinking.
People will download and watch what they want to, even if its not popular, if they wanna see it. You cant know whats top stuff or not, before you download and run things.
For last Vandalism news votings, reviews, ~25 people voted.
Thats a mag that over 300 read, but people dont care to vote.
So take the consequence. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
Quote:People will never start to vote more, its over, that was the old days, its a remnant of the old elite thinking.
i dont think people voted more in the past. most of the so called "charts" in mags were simply made up, as you should know =)
Quote:For last Vandalism news votings, reviews, ~25 people voted.
Thats a mag that over 300 read, but people dont care to vote.
i like the "whoever complains about votes will be switched into voting mode until he voted for 100 more productions" idea more and more =) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 679 |
Hehe, I'm all against forced vote.
People (well, some) vote based on CSDb linked screendumps already. That's bad enough for gfx but certainly worse for demos ;-)
I hardly vote myself and usually just 9 or 10, to express my OMG! feelings. |
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booker
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
Right, as this seems to go nowhere lemmie just again explain why I started this thread. It's not about voting, it's not about how many people vote, it's not about HOW someone vote.
Simply:
1.) we have charts on CSDb
2.) results calculation is crap
3.) if 2=crap why we need 1?
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
There has been various threads about this.
There has been MANY ideas how or what to do.
Every single idea is always turned down, by mostly 1 person: Groepaz.
"Oh no, that makes no sense, because"
So, there is no point at all to give any more ideas, it all ends in the thread going nowhere, as usual.
Instead to think and sit down, and try and make something, it is always Groepaz that just say "its futile".
So i gave my LAST idea, and is asking the people behind CSDB, to cut through all the ideas, and think hard, and make a DECISION.
Unless you are gonna make a DECISION, whatever it might be, just please from now on, when there is yet another idea what to do, then just CLOSE the thread immediately, with the comment "THREAD CLOSED, BECAUSE THE SYSTEM WILL NEVER BE CHANGED".
It all comes down to 1 thing: deciding, to do something.
There is enough ideas, you dont need any more ideas! |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
My FINAL idea:
Just show nr of downloads, and make that the "chart".
No more, no less.
Over and out, on this from me. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Get rid of vote based charts they're pointless and get abused anyway, add user favourites, correlate those every so often (save it taxing the server) into a top list of how many people have a prod in their favourites. It can still be abused but only if someone can persuade all their friends to favourite their stuff and not someone else's which would be petty anyway ;) |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
It aint just Groepaz who says no to ideas. He usually is the first to post it leaving the other admins to well, not do it. I back him on this.
Personally, yes, there are some faults with this system, and when perff actually has time, maybe it will be discussed to change, however, there are many other more important things we would prefer he would do first.
This thing just aint a priority to me right now, i much rather see other things on our to do list done first.
This however aint no blow off. When the time does come when we will tackle this problem, this thread and you opinions will be read again and taken seriously.
I am just saying, dont expect any changes overnigght you know. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1046 |
Vote on a paper votesheet and send it to me in the mail.
I will send your stamps back if you need them. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 679 |
Yes, JCBs concept is what I'd favour too.
A personal list of 5 (or 10) TOP releases in demo,gfx,music, etc. And add all TOP lists up for the charts.
However this requires new code/database-stuff.
Hence the idea to simply apply a more simple scheme above. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11523 |
Quote:
....
Every single idea is always turned down, by mostly 1 person: Groepaz.
...
it is always Groepaz that just say "its futile".
LOL. you obviously overestimate the influence and power of a single moderator by far. you can be sure that if others had a different view, they would say so.
Quote:
...
So i gave my LAST idea
promise?
Quote:Unless you are gonna make a DECISION, whatever it might be, just please from now on, when there is yet another idea what to do, then just CLOSE the thread immediately, with the comment "THREAD CLOSED, BECAUSE THE SYSTEM WILL NEVER BE CHANGED".
i can see how that solves everything and doesnt end in yet another OMG THEY BE CENSORING MY CRAP.
Quote:
There is enough ideas, you dont need any more ideas!
that indeed i can agree with. every possible - and impossible - way to solve this has already been mentioned, over and over. so essentially threads like this are pointless =)
and no, thats not a reason to close such threads. the usual suspects obviously like to discuss this every once a while =)
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 640 |
For fuck´s sake ... csdb just needs more votes - problem solved. zZz |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1046 |
Quote: For fuck´s sake ... csdb just needs more votes - problem solved. zZz
Same can be said for disk magazines in the late nineties and beyond... Internet generation is the lazy generation... |
