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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411 |
Commercial games in CSDB
Is it just me wondering why all the commercial games are being added to CSDB? I wouldn't call "Firebird" a scene-group...
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Warbaby
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 60 |
I have thought about this a while ago and I don't really mind. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Hehe, true. There's more important stuff to add than games, such as credits, credits, credits, or, well, screenshots. There's heaps of "empty" entries in this database.
I wonder what's the point of just adding the name of something without credits, screenshots or download links.
But who am I to judge... :-/ |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Because on dial up it is so slow. If there was a simple txt format you coould upload and it added everything except screenshot (these I have never added) then more would be added. Still, I don't see the point in adding games yet. Although it could be debated they are a part of the game scene. |
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MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
I think games and game-companies belong to the database aswell. Remember games was one of the items making the C64 so successful. Still, we need a better system to handle various versions (cracks) of the same game done by different groups. This was suggested before.
Templates is what Strykker means - we still all wait for them. Come on, Kilroy! |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411 |
Come on, I never said game-companies were not part of the C64-history. Still, I think they do not belong to a *scene*-database. Cracks are OK, but even there I just would like to see credits belonging to the crack not to the game. A different database might do the games-job (as there are some already on the net).
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
err what? "firebird" added as group ?!?! wtf ?!?! thats simply _out_of_the_question_ ... IMHO. ridiculous hahaha lol. (then again, i have seen "manfred trenz" listed as scene coder somewhere else aswell... rotfl) |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Ï also saw "activision" as a scene group!! what what whaaaat!?!? |
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MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
For some reason it seems to be in the nature of many C64-sceners that they only shows interest and respect to "crackers" of a game, never to the people creating it. So who are more responsible for a released game...? Strange IMHO. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
The issue is that this is a scene database, not a games database, we've got plenty for that on the web. it is not about creators of games or anything..
celtic |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411 |
so, will there be some action to remove such stuff or at least stop adding it? |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
that decision is nott up to me, but the maintainers. and secondly i wonder what matt (the guy who has been adding all this stuff has to say about it) |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
my guess is that it was just an easy thing to add... just like lots of people add productions without credits or anything (or at least used to, dont know if its still the case), adding the name of a game or game company is just that... easy...
of course we all know why MacGyver (or any other Protovision guy) thinks that companies belong in here aswell =)
other scene groups like X-Ample in fact DID work on games (and still do, even if on different platforms now), and that kind of information clearly belongs here imo.
people like Ben Daglish etc. need to be added to give proper music credits to demos... why Manfred Trenz was added... I have no idea... |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
In the case of Ben Daglish (Ben) he actually did some (Compunet) demos together with Antony Crowther (Ratt) back in the old days, so he belongs in the CSDB anyway because of that, right?
Thalamus, however, does NOT belong here, it wasn't even a game developer group but a game publisher, for crying out loud...!
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
okay, maybe Ben Daglish was not a good example of someone who did NOT do demos but nevertheless had his work end up in some =)
but I totally agree about Thalamus... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Let me butt in for a moment.
I think everybody here knows that the 'scene' we're talking about is the non-professional one, i.e. the demo- and cracking scene right?
So why put information about the professional scene in here?
I would really like to hear from the person (Matt?) who does this stuff. Does he even understand the meaning of the scene?
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Okay then...
Don't tell me anything I don't know about the scene 'cause I have been an active (erm) scener for quite some years. (1989-1994).
Anyhow, if you don't feel comfortable me adding all the games why don't you just ask me friendly? Adding a release without adding the credits seem far more worse to me.
If the webmaster wants to delete all the stuff I've added that day (fokkin' raining outside that day ranning out of pot I didn't know what to do ;) ), that's okay.
Kick my ass
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
I'm much more interested in finding out if a certain group released a demo I didn't know about through this site, even though there may not be any credits added, than finding out which gamecompany produced a certain shoot 'm up.
And since you insist on mixing data from the professional scene with that from the 'hobby'scene for which this site is intended (unless I'm mistaken), you can't blame me for doubting your knowledge. Or for not giving a fuck how long you've been an "active member" since obviously you don't seem to share the same definition of the scene as the rest of us.
You might as well call yourself a scener because you play cracked games. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
There is a lot of incomplete data on sceneres.. our goal should be to complete those first. |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Quote: I'm much more interested in finding out if a certain group released a demo I didn't know about through this site, even though there may not be any credits added, than finding out which gamecompany produced a certain shoot 'm up.
And since you insist on mixing data from the professional scene with that from the 'hobby'scene for which this site is intended (unless I'm mistaken), you can't blame me for doubting your knowledge. Or for not giving a fuck how long you've been an "active member" since obviously you don't seem to share the same definition of the scene as the rest of us.
You might as well call yourself a scener because you play cracked games.
Since you're the expert, I'd better keep my mouth shut, right, mr. scene?
Oh, before you go on any further, I really do know what the scene is all about. I was editor of WOW's discmagazine Internal between 1990-1993.
I thought I made my point clear (read my previous posting) but you obviously don't understand. Leave it, okay?
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Do I smell that so-called elite again...?
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Quote: Since you're the expert, I'd better keep my mouth shut, right, mr. scene?
Oh, before you go on any further, I really do know what the scene is all about. I was editor of WOW's discmagazine Internal between 1990-1993.
I thought I made my point clear (read my previous posting) but you obviously don't understand. Leave it, okay?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm interested in your point of view. I never claimed to be 'mr.scene'. I do know a lot about the demoscene yes, but the cracking scene I don't care for. However I recognize its importance and the fact that it is as big a part of the overall scene as the demoscene.
I've never considered the pro scene to be part of it as well, so I was pretty surprised to see you do. And sorry, but in your posts above you never even tried to explain why you entered those games, apart from "I was bored". If you can supply me a decent argument, then I will leave it.
So don't be like "well, I was part of the scene as well, and if you don't like it just delete it", but try to defend your point of view instead.
Surely, as an editor of the world-famous "Internal" your discussional skills must be quite strong, right? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Quote: Do I smell that so-called elite again...?
If I were you I'd ask the guys here to add 'elite-smeller' to the list of professions.
Then you could have one more thing to be creditted for with the next Rock'n Role release. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
TDJ: You're such a mean bastard! :-) |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
TDJ,
seems like you're the man in charge here.
Yeah, you obviously don't give a fuck about that 'little discmagazine' Internal do you? If I told you I was bored that should be enough for explanation.
Anyhow mr. elite mr. scene whatever I won't bother you anylonger.
You're so cool I think I love you |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
To me the scene is already people who just play games, but that's my personal point of view, kidna metaphysical.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Quote: TDJ,
seems like you're the man in charge here.
Yeah, you obviously don't give a fuck about that 'little discmagazine' Internal do you? If I told you I was bored that should be enough for explanation.
Anyhow mr. elite mr. scene whatever I won't bother you anylonger.
You're so cool I think I love you
No, I'm not the man in charge but I am entitled to give my opinion
No, I don't give a fuck about Internal.
No, I don't think that being bored is a good reason to pollute the scene database.
No, I don't think you will be bothering me any longer.
No, you don't love me, you just want me for my body.
"The easiest and the hardest word to say is no"
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Quote: To me the scene is already people who just play games, but that's my personal point of view, kidna metaphysical.
Well, maybe the guys in charge (Perff & the others) should give their definition of the scene.
Me, I'm ready to enter my brother, 'coz he finished The Bard's Tale 1,2 and 3!! :) |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Quote: No, I'm not the man in charge but I am entitled to give my opinion
No, I don't give a fuck about Internal.
No, I don't think that being bored is a good reason to pollute the scene database.
No, I don't think you will be bothering me any longer.
No, you don't love me, you just want me for my body.
"The easiest and the hardest word to say is no"
Hearing I won't bother you anylonger, now that's a relief.
As for the rest, I suppose it's hard being the king of the scene, right mr. elite?
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Quote: Hearing I won't bother you anylonger, now that's a relief.
As for the rest, I suppose it's hard being the king of the scene, right mr. elite?
The hardest part is having to share it with (dare I say it) lamers like you.
Y'know, I never proclaimed myself "king of the scene" or said I was elite, but this always happens. As soon as I have a different opinion than guys like you, you start getting really hostile, trying to be sarcastic with you "mr.elite" stuff etc.
Maybe you should just step away from all that jealousy and try to have a real discussion instead of falling back to the same childish routine.
Yet, you don't bother me, you just amuse me. And I also feel a bit of pity.
After all, it can't be easy, knowing that your hard work as an Internal editor earns you no respect whatsoever from those you obviously envy :)
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Jealousy?
What?
First of all I don't know who you are and what you have done for the scene, so what's that all about jealousy?
Anyhow, maybe we just can't stand eachothers breath so let's cut the crap and try to be nice to eachothers, okay?
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Quote: Jealousy?
What?
First of all I don't know who you are and what you have done for the scene, so what's that all about jealousy?
Anyhow, maybe we just can't stand eachothers breath so let's cut the crap and try to be nice to eachothers, okay?
If you don't know me, why call me "Mr. Elite"?
But hey, I don't dislike you, I don't even know you. You take this way too personal.
Man, good thing you were never on Spankerz Heaven, you wouldn't have lasted a day :)
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
TDJ:You are the one acting elite, speaking down to people instead of to people. Why are you so up yourself? Still hanging onto old elitism? Remember, your opinion is yours and may also reflect some people you know of but will never be the opinion of all. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Stryyker: don't believe the hype.
All I did was ask WHY?
Right away Matt got hostile, instead of just giving me a valid reason (being bored is not a reason, it's an excuse).
And it is *him* who started throwing his weight around (editor of Internal), not me .. I never once mentioned my own accomplishments. So who is 'acting elite' then?
My opinion is mine yes, but apparently I have no right to give it. Because as soon as I do, I'm 'acting elite', talking down to people.
Well, fuck you, and your scene. |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Quote:TDJ: And it is *him* who started throwing his weight around (editor of Internal), not me .. I never once mentioned my own accomplishments. So who is 'acting elite' then?
I only said this to prove I DO know what the scene is all about, not about throwing my weight (erm, that wouldn't be much I'm affraid :) )
Anyhow, my temper isn't all that now and then so please let's forget about all this.
Cheers,
/Matt
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Cool, let's leave it at this. |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
And peace returns... :)
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
...and then someone happens to discover that Thalamus, Manfred Trenz and Nobby the Aardvark are still in the database, and resurrects this thread. And as there seem to be 1 or 2 people who believe that these things actually belong in a scene database, and the maintainers of the database don't seem to want to put the foot down, we'll probably have to go through this discussion once a month from now on.
So forget about peace and quiet, roll up your sleeves and prepare to fight. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I'm under the impression Manfred did release atleast 1 demo production using another handle |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
add the handle and the demo in question for Manfred then (I personally dont recall him doing scene work), and while yer at it, add handles and demos for all the other commercial guys, including the publishing companies, and we're set =) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I e-mailed the guy that maintains the Manfred Trenz Fanpage and asked him about it. Still no reply though. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2979 |
Very funny indeed.
I don't think commercial games or their creators or their publishers should be added in here.
And yes, *applauding TDJ*. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I don't know what to think anymore:
1. The guy doing the Manfred Trenz fanpage (he's called RAM-BRAND) told me he "believes that Manfred has done a few demos". That's pretty much all that he wrote. :-/
2. Groepaz popped up and said that he talked to Manfred in person and he himself confirmed to Groepaz that he never did anything scene-related. Can't find this posting, where is it?
3. On Vision 2002 I talked to CKX and Biguser of Protovision, they were both 100% sure that he released "2 or 3" demos that were included on a german magazine (was it the 64'er? Can't remember...). They even remembered how these demos looked like.
Question is if this stuff was only coding-examples that did some fancy stuff on the screen. And is this sufficient to be called scene-production?
Just to shed some light on this topic (not that I would care too much). Peace!
/Steppe |
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Nim
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 27 |
ALot of sceners were involve din making games etc, so personally i think games should be listed also, if there's a scene connection.. |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
to fulfill Puterman's assumption from above:
Did you finally decide on to wether include commercial games or not? |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Oh my.
This is so stupid. I can't believe you even discuss this. I'm completely against even adding cracks to group releases since it would add upp a totally absurd amount of releases for a group with the age of Triad or Fairlight. I mean, we in Triad have alone released apx. 800+ spreaddisks with cracks since 1986! From now on, you will see no crack present in the Triad releaselist on CSDB. And the discussion of adding commercial releases to a scene database is even more absurd.
There are perfectly good examples of good databases handling games out there. Add them there, or on any decent scene FTP. Or make a list on your homepage. That's appreciated. But not here.
So, my conclusions are;
1) Shame on you who wants to spoil this database with information which isn't connected to the demo or crackingsscene - what people generally call The Scene. Shame.
2) If I ever stumble upon a commercial game, not in any way connected to the demoscene, I will delete it on sight if I have the possibility. Same goes with commercial game companies. Amen. This is so stupid. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
right on 2f.... this is just becoming more and more funny :o)
oh and manfred, he indeed told me that he had _never_ made or even remotely contributed to any scene work, be it demo or game or whatever. (i would like to hear those rumours from the ptv guys (who probably still ran around the christmas tree in diapers by the time they claim to remember mt productions from :=P) ... the descriptions of the demos would be most interisting, ppl could probably tell which guys *really* made them :=)). [btw the same is true for andreas escher, just in case... :=P]
oh btw, MT _did_ release one thing which you all know: Funpaint2. it was published in 64er magazine... and it was NOT published using the name "Manfred Trenz" (its hidden somewhere in memory though....also the initials "T.M." are somewhat..well :O)).
i am not sure if releases from 64er mag are "scene" though, afterall it has been commercial stuff.
And ofcourse, unless they drop their attempt of beeing a "real" company which sells games, protovision doesnt belong here either. (scene and commercialism just dont go together IMHO).
tsts
and thumbs up TDJ! opinion without compromise is what the scene needs these days. diplomacy is just another word for lying and therefor sux. SCREW THEM LAMAHS!!!
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
I disagree on the topic "Protovision". Their entire membership and attitude is scene-wise, best example their Vision 2003 party and its invitation demo. So they are both, commercial and scene, which in fact is possible in 2003. |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Quote: Oh my.
This is so stupid. I can't believe you even discuss this. I'm completely against even adding cracks to group releases since it would add upp a totally absurd amount of releases for a group with the age of Triad or Fairlight. I mean, we in Triad have alone released apx. 800+ spreaddisks with cracks since 1986! From now on, you will see no crack present in the Triad releaselist on CSDB. And the discussion of adding commercial releases to a scene database is even more absurd.
There are perfectly good examples of good databases handling games out there. Add them there, or on any decent scene FTP. Or make a list on your homepage. That's appreciated. But not here.
So, my conclusions are;
1) Shame on you who wants to spoil this database with information which isn't connected to the demo or crackingsscene - what people generally call The Scene. Shame.
2) If I ever stumble upon a commercial game, not in any way connected to the demoscene, I will delete it on sight if I have the possibility. Same goes with commercial game companies. Amen. This is so stupid.
look at releaselist triad...
Devil's Gallery +4T
Heli-Jump +2T
Snare ++
i don't care about cracks in the database, they are also a part of the scene. There has never been told that this database was only demoscene-based. It was a scene database and the scene was more than only a demoscene.
The only thing I don't like in this database, is this discussion forum which also caused bad changes to this database.
have the maintainers of this database still a copy of the whole database (the system and the data) from a year back?
it would be nice to have the database from a year back, but then the discussion forum removed from it. this could be a second database with only concerning in adding data. Also the voting should be removed, this voting has already been misused by several guys/girls.
as the database goes now, i am afraid of too much bad influence. i already stopped now adding new data since the unneccessary critics started to be a linching and nothing more. i will take this database more serious when some people stop giving unneccessary critics and stop locking handle- and group-entries which aren't their responsibility. (example : Wow has been locked, but not by the present organisers/leaders who are also present at the database... real strange, but more of these kind of things happened in this database). if you lock something from someone else who is also present in the database, then add this someone else also as maintainer.
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Concerning "Heli Jump", "Devils Gallery" and "Snare.
I don't know which stupido added these entries (cracks), and I find it hard to hold myself responsible for them since anyone could add short of any info to anything. The locking of certain events/groups/persons is a nice feature I reckon, and since you probably don't have to do much else than drop a mail to the admins to give yourself the same rights - what's the big problem? And to rest your concerns - the three crack entries will be removed asap. And hey - keep on whining, boys! Any change to this place is a good change. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Emailing the present maintainer of a record normally works, Raven forgot to include me in the graphics credits for Half Baked so a quick nudge later and there i am. =-)
Commander: if you have so many issues with how Noname run their database, why not set your *own* up that's administered the way you want it to be...?
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
I don't believe in existence of "unnecessary" criticism. I'd rather fear the day when no-one will say anything.. IMO, through criticism and dialogue valuable understanding of how others think, can be gained, if not strictly thinking of as negative and possible personal attack (which the "releasedate" thread was IMO not) |
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Shake
Posts: 134 |
Yes, but talking too much is also possible.
Some discussions go on and on and on, without much new arguments. The discussion repeats, lasts too long, people get bored and then it's time to decide. Take the 2 mentioned before, the voting and the cracks. Make a decission! And that's something the maintainers have to do in the end. If they can't make one, ask the visitors in a poll.
Keeping it the way it is is also a decission, but speek out.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
so someone make a decision, take some hours and lock every damned entry in the database so the whining has an end :=P
seriously, IMHO the one and only problem is that every mumbo can go add himself to the database and then start adding bullshit at whill. maybe some good old application system, heaviliy inspired by the bbs days, could help to filter out those who know what they are doing and those who dont. (and i am not speaking about the cracks yes/no question, but about the amazing lot of various crap/wrong/guessed info added lately)
gpz |
