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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Downvoting
A while ago I came up with a (I think) reasonable system that voters would be split in 2 groups, anonymous & non-anonymous. The votes of the non-anonymous voters could be seen by everybody, those from the anonymous users not. The last group would then have a limitted range, let's say from 4 - 7 instead of 1-10.
I haven't heard anything about it since, but the reason I bring it up again is because it has come under my attention that 2 of my groupmembers have been seriously downvoted. And with serious I mean they (Sander & Jeroen Tel) both got a "1" twice.
I guess it can either be that some people who didn't have a clue how this board works voted so low by accident, or that they decided they didn't like the high rankings.
I guess it could also be that they really dislike the work of Sander & Jeroen but that I don't believe ;)
Either way I would like to know if the maintainers of this board already have thought up a solution for this problem. Because if you want to have a serious chart-system these things need to be taken care of.
Any comments? |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Having a voting system where you can vote anonymously is pointless anyway, because people will up- or downvote all the time. The best would be if you could see the _full_ vote statistics, including who gave what points to every production, group etc. Then most people would probably be a bit more reluctant to give Sander a "1" as graphician or Civitas "10" as a group. |
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Warbaby
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 60 |
I think non-anonymous voting would be great, because then a great musician like Jeroen Tel could see how many fans he has :) |
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anonym
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 267 |
Hi guys,
I dislike the downvoting here as well, but I am not quite sure that removing anonymous voting will completely change this behaviour, it might however reduce it a bit. Consider this:
- One could still create fake accounts (maybe even using existing handles of others) and downvote.
- Seen how a group was voted before, influences the vote as well.
For example I gave a rather high vote for X-ample yesterday (I believe it was 9), which was the fith vote that they got. They started showing up in the Group charts on rank one. A day later some else voted a lower vote for them, which made them rank sith.
So the previous votes and current rank will in one way or the other often influence how people will vote - but I guess it's not as bad as actually giving votes of 1 to a group just to put them further down in the charts.
It's actually rather interesting to look the group charts for example - for some of the groups it's rather easy to tell who was down/upvoted - just compare the amount of votes they got to the others.
What's my point? Not sure myself anymore ;-)
But I guess since making the votes public would eliminate part of the behaviour (and enable us to identify the culprits), it would still be a good idea.
/Frank |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Well, "downvoting" persee is not a bad thing .. meaning that if I, for example, see a group showing up in the top 10 that I don't like that much, but have not voted for, I'll probably go out there and give it a lower vote.
But there is a difference between a lower vote (like 5 or so) and an absurd vote (like 1).
As for fake accounts: if there's somebody unknown who keeps giving "1's" out, I guess it's very clear that that's a fake account, right? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Ofcourse with "don't like" I mean their work, not the people in the group. Also I meant to say that this kind of downvoting gives a more realistic view of the scene's taste (as people tend to vote only for their favourites) |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
I see this down/up voting is a problem that should be done something about.
As I'm in my 'improve CSDb'-mood I'd like to do something about it right away, but what do you think?
Should we make all the votes completly transparent?
Or should we do the anonymous - nonanonymous with the anonymous only being able to restricted ranges?
Feedback on solution ideas are welcome.
As to the talk about fake accounts we have been working on a way to detect if people are using fake accounts, so we are working on that area. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Completely transparent. Whispering: but please erase my downvote for CreaMD ;-))))))) I wouldn't like to be accused of selfvoting ;-)) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I prefer complete transparancy as well, after all, we're all adults here, aren't we?
Yes, that was sarcastic.
Maybe if we can stop taking everything so damn personal it'll work.
Another idea by Jayce/Focus, in case of 2 groups of voters: weigh the votes of the anonymous users differently than the votes by the rest. |
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Jayce
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 39 |
Indeed weighting the votes with a dividekey between anonymous and registered gives downvoters less influence on actual score.
But a combination of both methods would be even beter, not being able to give extreme low and high points anonymous, weighting the votes and making it transparent
Not being able to anonymous downvote a person/group probally increases the number of registered users. But a fake user is easy to spot when the votes are transparent, and can be removed from the database.
Somehow all votingsystems involve people trying to cheat their way to the top (or bottom), has something todo with the primatestruggle to be number one i guess :) But that doesn't mean you can't make it harder for them to cheat.
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Err, wtf do you mean by transparent? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Transparant = see-through, meaning that if you vote, everybody will be able to see what you voted. Non-anonymous so to speak. |
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taper
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 119 |
Anonymous voting is totally wack. If you vote, you should have no problem standing up for your views. So, scrap the anonymous voting! |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Taper, you're speaking from my heart. :) |
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Danko
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 19 |
The so-called downwoting is only a problem as long as there are very few entries posted in the voting-polls. Once enough people vote, those anomalities will even out since it's rather fractions deciding the ranking at the moment. It'll be useless in the future to submit the lowest vote possible, anyway.
But for now, it's an interesting way to see how you can manipulate a system. Something most hackers can't avoid pondering over...
Personally I would never doubt someone who downvoted me. I already know I'm a pathetic loser. :)
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Shokray
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 66 |
anyway, we all (should) know, who's ruling and who is not.. ;) ... |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
exactly, dont vote.. millions of americans cant be wrong :) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
I want transparent votes! Come on, remove the anonymity already. |
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
i think there are two problems...
1- downvoting
2- few number of votes can make funny fractions
here is my brainstorming...
1- do not allow anonymous voting. (i did not even know it was possible :))
2- instead of splitting voters into two let's split the charts into two... for every category there could be a "best x" chart and a "best newcomer x" chart. any item that has less then n votes competes in the newcomer chart. this way gods and titans like crest oxyron etc can compete with their hundreds of votes while the newcomers can still get the attention they need in the beginning of their lifecycle... once a newcomer has n votes then it is taken off the newcomer chart and goes into best chart. n could be calculated from a little examination of the current database. let's say n can be the number of votes for a single item that k% of the database items got less than...
(as you see engineers give a lot of numbers but no solutions :)... well but you get the point
that n could be changed in time if necessary if the voting trends change... |
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Shake
Posts: 134 |
Transparant would be best to minimize the downvoting, but still people will give 10 to something that does not make any sense. what I find more interesting is the system poeut.net uses, thumbs up or thumbs down fast comments. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
I don't mind people downvoting, but I don't think it should be done anonymously. As far as I can remember, the poll ended long ago, with a majority of voters saying YES to transparent votes. So, please...can we have transparent votes soon?
Oh, and for the record, I think CSDB's voting system is much better than the one used at Pouet.net
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Shake
Posts: 134 |
What's the value of a system like this? One new release enters the charts once a year, same 15 demos changing position in the top 10. Creating a top 10 out of 10 releases, like with compos works perfectly, 7000+ items is a different story. Demos get overhyped, new demos don't get any votes. It will be worth looking at other alternatives to make it work and more interesting, now it doesn't and transparant won't change.
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Shake, the big problem with CSDB's voting system (besides the anonymity which I'm hoping they will get rid off) is that not enough people actually vote...and that isn't going to change just by copying Pouet.net's concept now, is it?
Transparent votes, please. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Maybe there could be a top 10 of all time and a top 10 per month like remix.kewed.org has. That way at least people releasing new stuff get to see their work is appreciated and get to track how voting is going. |
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Shake
Posts: 134 |
If it's going to change, don't know, quess we should test the result of that ;) Perhaps the barriar to give an opinion is a bit smaller and improves a little bit more feedback on new releases we're currently missing with the usercomments and votes.
But you're right about the transparant votes, it's better for the system (looking forward to watch those revealed 'one point' voter names ;)
any thought's/plans from the DB maintainers? |
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Shake
Posts: 134 |
there's one of their plans alreay. The CSDB entry discussion |
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The Overkiller
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 342 |
Yes, 100% transparent voting is better !!!
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
downvoting (and upvoting) could be nearly completely eliminated by taking a lot of median values and building the rating based on these values only. for example, you could take 90% of the votes chosen by median criteria...
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
I've found that it's possible to delete your vote! I didn't want to have my vote in Webmasters I gave myself "1" back then to get me down under Cupid and Kilroy but it didn't help much, seems like people think I'm a good webmaster ;-). Thank you very much everybody and especially for the ongoing support of c64.sk.
However, there are more of them around who should deserve more attention like Perff (he didn't check webmaster as his proffesion though), Slaygon (c64.org), Kim Lemon (lemon64.com) - seems like he doesn't consider himself a scener but his site has a great impact on retro-minded people, or Wideload (wire.c64.org) Wire is celebrating 1 year of inactivity lately, but it's to be relaunched soon. Also Anonym is great webmaster maintaining Padua FTP, Bannerexchange, COCOS (www.c64.cc).
And hey! Transparent votes is a great idea really. Especially now when those who are afraid of being discovered as shameless downvoters can delete their votes ;-)))). |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
well, compared to pouet, the people here seem to be more lazy when it comes to voting. there's so much people left with open votes. |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
On the other hand... pouet is a multiplatform site.. this is only a c64 site... and there is still ppl who have not discovered this site yet...
I agree thata there are many sceners/groups/prods with open votes ... for example for me its a mystery why xenon is not on the chart :) ... but on the other hand.. there are many categories here.... demo/music/picture/4k/game/tool etc /coder/graphician/musician...
My advice is to drop best fullscreen graphician and logo graphician and ONLY have best graphician.. as it is now its only 2 sceners in best fullscreen graphician.... if you look it it you see AEG on that chart... if he is a good fullscreen graphician he should also be a good graphician :)
.
sorry for spelling misstakes but its 7:36
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Dalezy: I guess it's because there are no rewards for that (glops :) |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Btw,. I was wondering who is the webmaster of this site? Can he join our discussion? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
How many discussion boards will we have on this downvoting thingie.
It's indeed stupid to see two guys on the fullscreen graphicians list and one on the logo graphicians list, I'd very gladly remove myself from there (but no can do).
And while we're at voting, there is a possibility to vote for various releases (e. g. music, intro, graphics, magazines, etc...), but I didn't get yet how to check those charts where they're listed, if they're listed at all(and if no, why? :)
Yeah perhaps if there would be a static top voters/commenters chart (by number of votes/comment), it would be much more fun to vote/comment (can't say I have wild and wet dreams about such a feature, but according to my circus monkeys they would gladly vote and comment a lot just to get into the charts). |
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zdzisek
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 33 |
>>> And while we're at voting, there is a possibility to vote for various releases (e. g. music, intro, graphics, magazines, etc...), but I didn't get yet how to check those charts where they're listed, if they're listed at all(and if no, why? :) <<<
Click on "Top Demos" (right panel), then choose a type of chart you're interested in. Voila. :) |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Quote: I want transparent votes! Come on, remove the anonymity already.
So because _you_ say jump everybody should ? |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
I agree with those posts in here that think the "top logo graphicians" and "fullscreen graphicians" should be removed, especially since its a pain to bring up a graphician and cast 3 different votes, atleast with the current system. Besides why arent there categories like "raster coder", "sprite coder", "jazz musician" etc ? ;) |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Quote: downvoting (and upvoting) could be nearly completely eliminated by taking a lot of median values and building the rating based on these values only. for example, you could take 90% of the votes chosen by median criteria...
Well it seems that ppl rather want to go on a witch hunt and spend some time looking for ppl who dislike their work, so they can spend some more meaningless time bitching. Politics have unfortunately always been above Mathematics in real life. Yes I know it sucks. |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
I'm looking forward to see who voted "1" for Jack Alien as cracker. Tastes with music is a lot different, but who can say Jack Alien is a bad cracker? |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Downvoting is ridiculous. Just keep it as the 'normal' C64 style of point accumilation. If people complain that groups or sceners shouldn't be in the top, tough shit, they are there for a reason.
People don't fall on mountains.
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Do they fall off mountains ? |
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
Hey, I fell up a flight of stairs once...
Ba-dum-bum.
Seriously, though... I don't think you can stop downvoting completely. Let's face it: human nature sucks. Scener #1 was in competition with/didn't get along with/killed the puppy of Scener #2 and so he gets a vote of 1 because Scener #2 is an arse (except in the puppy example, because then I can understand it). It's common practice, especially in the scene.
I think that a transparent voting system will help it a lot... not so much in it's current incarnation (which is a start), in which you can choose to be transparent or not, but in a future where you either have to be transparent or you get limited votes or no vote at all. Because unless they're ready to get hate mail or ostricized, nobody's going to vote a 1 when people can point out who they are.
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