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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
LevelEditors
Hello, I have looked at some leveleditors for c64 (for game creating) but unfortunaly no one is real good. Can anyone recommend a good one... ??
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
If you meant a leveleditor for some existing game, then this doesn't apply...but...
If you can stand the idea of cross-editing (in this case, on Win32 platform) then take a look at the Covert Bitops tools at
http://covertbitops.cjb.net/tools.htm
..the "Background Editor" collection; these are SEUCK-like background editors for 4x4 block scrolling levels that I use for my games.
Of course, it's likely that you have to code your own editor or modify existing ones to get precisely what you want.
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
i tried to find a good level editor before, but no luck.
then lynchbit made one. there are a few details that bother me, but i still think its really good.
ftp://ftp.scs-trc.net/pub/c64/Tools/Misc/ld_level.zip |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
I Like Game Graphic Editor by J.Fox I had version cracked by Transcom. It doesn't have tiles but just charset editor/ and charset graphic editing (editable size of findow, decent copying and manipulating functions, I've mad 8x8 charsets with this editor very easily etc.). It's very powerful and it's even combined with very very good sprite editor. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I guess it's time to bring this topic up again, concidering the fact that ALiH has brought forth his game-competition. After scouring around the web a little, I sadly found out that there are no Win-based generic level-editors at all for the C64. I'm really kind of shocked. Do you guys have an idea how many level-editors and so on there are existant for platforms such as the NES or the Gameboy?
Actually, the state of things is so bad that the best current option is to use the Gameboy-based GBMB (Gameboy Map Builder) and GBTD (Gameboy Tile Designer) as they are generic - you can edit metatiles of almost any size you find fitting. The only setback is that you have to draw the chars twice, once in GBTD and once in Subchrist's CharPad. If you then export your map in chosen format, the combination will work out pretty well.
The problem is that things shouldn't be handled this way. You shouldn't have use a leveleditor for the Gameboy to make levels for the C64. There ought to be some kind of generic solution which is dedicated to the C-64. I think this would be more than benefitting for the small C64 gamemaking community there is. The current two which I have found to exist is:
1) CharPad by Subchrist. (Edits 4x4 char metatiles only)
2) Lasses Backgroundeditors (Edits 4x4 char metatiles)
And that's it. That's everything. Could any of you concider making a generic level-editor with the support of C-64 chars? A level-editor which could make levels based on any combination up to 8x8 metatiles, or atleast 1x1, 2x2, 3x2, and 4x4 metatiles? A level-editor which can sort the row of metatiles in both rows and columns? Please? Pretty please? And have I forgotten any crossplatform-editor? |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Eh, once you get past just defining the chars/tiles there's still so much game-specific things to do (object/enemy placement and such) that I guess such editor would still do the job only halfway? |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Halfway is better than no-way, I reckon. But looking at the available tools on the C-64, there is close to nothing. If I just don't have to edit the levels by hand in an hex-editor (or even worse - in monitor). If objects, collision-maps and so on is based on a similar metatile-system, i'd be able to use the same editor for all layers save for the handling of the enemies. I guess making generic routines on the C-64 that strips down/compacts the data wouldn't be that hard. What I don't want to do is doing the level-editing on the real thing. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
there were several ammazingly good level / char / sprite editors released together with one of the VN issues. but that was years ago an my memory is short (maybe one of the editors was called "delight")
jazzcat ? |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
For all I know, such do-it-all editor could be very useful. But it would be sad to see a good game idea wasted or badly realized just because internal leveldataformat was limited by editor. For example, for big Turrican-like maps you probably need enemy/item lists, not an extra map layer. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I don't know how useful it might be, but a very long time ago I played a bit in Vespa's Background Editor. I really liked it back then, but I think I'd have some issues with it today. Worth to take a glance.
The editor + a few ugly examples...
http://www.arnoldcistai.net/temp/stuff.gz
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Hmm, can't get the above editor to work, but doesn't it look just like... Ehm... Another non-generic 4x4 metatileeditor to me? Or are the sizes adjustable?
I completely agree that games with huge levels need generic editors. You can't afford the luxury to use multiple layers in such a tool. Was the level-editor for Turrican III ever released, by the way? That must have been something out of the ordinary... |
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Spinball
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 88 |
digital excess released a very good 2x2 level-editor on magic-disk back in 1994. |
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ice00
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 54 |
Selfmade (similar to Cadaver one) horizzontal scrolling 4x4 editor in Java (1.5) for LSS2:
http://digilander.iol.it/ice00/download/lss_.zip
The ditor is improving as soon as I need for the LSS2 game |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I'm sure those level-editors are very swell in all ways possible, but as most level-editors, they're very case specific and not very flexible. 4X4 metatiles, differing (but very specific) colorhandling and so on. Perhaps I just have to bite the sour apple and accept that this is the fact? Can anyone remember what that 2x2 editor was called? |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Yeh there was the Deelite editor. But many older editors are hardly flexible for today's standards (imo). With all the PC applications available I would imagine people would benefit more from cross-development. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: I'm sure those level-editors are very swell in all ways possible, but as most level-editors, they're very case specific and not very flexible. 4X4 metatiles, differing (but very specific) colorhandling and so on. Perhaps I just have to bite the sour apple and accept that this is the fact? Can anyone remember what that 2x2 editor was called?
@2f: A PERFECT opportunity for you to start learn to code Java or whatever!!! :D I know u have TEH codewarrior skillz hidden inside you. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
What's the problem with 4x4? Or 1x1 (J.Fox editor)?
If you want to make a playable game, I think the level editor is not the main issue. |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
if anyone does tackle this, please make it cross-platform with either java (swing) or QT/C++.
I cant run VB apps, so youre cutting me out of your market :)
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Ofcourse there's nothing wrong with an editor which handles 4x4 tiles nor 1x1 tiles. It's just a matter of preference. Bigger tiles = less varible graphics in smaller levelsize. The main issue with the J.Fox one is that it is made on the C-64, and I believe that says it all.
The Level Development System by Electric Brains, Lynchbits copy of it and Delite are all nice systems. Not very flexible though, and not definitly not cross-platform. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
4x4 tiles tend to play better, because the player can recognise patterns easier, I think. (And it provides a margin of error, since a sprite is 3 chars wide) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
A cute game probably needs 2x2 tiles though, especially if the main sprite is 1 sprite and quite plump (ie. moves in a waddling fashion and has feet use only about 2 chars of the 3) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
what about opentume ? its quite generic and very customizeable (ofcourse right now, no c64 stuff is present but should be trivial to add) |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Well, OpentUME with C-64 features added (bitmap, chars, chars+colors, etc) would be about exactly what i'm aiming at. That is an awesome tile-based tool which right now supports almost everything but the C-64. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
so get coding! :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
@Cadaver: I guess you're right, 2x2 tiles are cute. But I doubt it's problem to use 4x4 blocks with virtual 2x2 tiles in 'm. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
2x2 tiles = tiny levels. Btw, tile sizes are not always square. Giana Sisters uses 3x2 tiles. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
and actually a prolate tiling makes very much sense for a horizontal scroller. |
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ice00
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 54 |
What I have seen by creating 4x4 map level editor is that it will come difficult to manage the blocks to insert in the editor.
For example you should have big objects of dimension 9x3 and you need to write many blocks for having one of it.
Else you can have some objects of 1x1 (e.g an actor position) and you need to create many 4x4 blocks if you want to place it in different background position.
Maybe the advantage of use 4x4 blocks onto map is something that can affect the engine to use, but for map editing is not so confortable.
For the next editor (maybe LSS3) I will look for a 1x1 map editor (at the cost of map size), but where in there you can create blocks of MxN dimensions.
When you create the map and put the block, it will simple fill into the actual map position. This make a more fast map creation.
Maybe then a tool that try to find the smollest map size using 2x2, 3x2, 4x4, ecc, starting from the 1x1 map could be always created :)
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
all solutions of the problem means more cpu / memory usage, so it will always boil down to very specific solutions, always nailing it down to the best compromise. |
