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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
Are you a Crossdev-er???
I post this message mostly because I have just finished coding a crossdev util (PC C64 Bitmap Editor), but just as much because I'm wondering how many other cross-development
fans there are out there. Below follows a list of "you might be an American lamer if" stuff....
If you love developing stuff for the C64, but love to do it on another machine, then stand and be counted, eh... If cadaver's your hero, speak up. If you've ever spent a weeks pay on a new PC to run VICE and goattracker, let's hear about it. If you spend more time in VICE than in Windows, or think that the last twenty years of development in the field of computer technology served the sole purpose of giving you a hard drive on which to organize your SID music, then shout out, eh...
I can't be the only one who sees the value of a PC as a slave terminal for a C64 setup, useful only in terms of how it services your C64 rig, so let's prove it!
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
I cross develop but trying to create music on PC is nowhere near good enough so real C64 only for that. PC's power is in speed and memory so a good text editor and command line assembler is rather useful :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Yess, i'm a crossdresse... oh. cross developer? Erm...
Well, i'm one of those an' all... =-) i write code in Notepad and assemble with C64Asm, do the odd music conversion with GoatTracker and graphics are (as they have been for several years for me) done on a battered Amiga 1200 (i've tried Grafx2 but it's just so choppy on the PCs we have running here).
Two reasons, one is the fact that it's just a lot *easier* to develop that way. The original "Reaxion" was written native and took three separate source files for titles, main game and completion and in order to assemble it, i had to save the object code to disk from one machine and load it into another as a testbed (there was a transfer cable between the two machines later on). "Reaxion Extended" had one source file and could be betatested within about 30 seconds.
The other reason for cross developing is that i don't have the physical space for my C128D here - it's a small room and with three PCs and the A1200 running we're "full". For now, that situation is one we're working on... =-) |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
i use deluxe paint on my amiga, the gfx usually looks better on the c64, when it gets all nice and blurry on the tvset. i used a crossassembler on pc made by some taboo member when i coded some of the parts for the dwangi demo. i got tired of stuff like 'label overflow' in turbo asm but i do prefer coding on the c64, but for some stuff the pc is better. for a crappy effect demo like that it was perfect having some small pc program generate tables and speedcode, then assemble and link and test it in vice. konv1 by poison is another tool i use frequently.
i also have some own tools made on pc like my own bmp to char or sprites converter. i think most people do some crossdeving, if not...well, they are the ones who suffer from it. |
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Cupid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 83 |
I am doing some smaller bits and bobs in the emulator, but I pixel on C-64 only, and that is the only transfers I do (finsihed amica paint to pc) as my connection times out a lot.
Then again, I hardly do any coding.
The sickest I have ever done are some c/g things in vice on the laptop while I was in SF :)
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3039 |
Just a credit correction.
Konv1 is by Soci/Singular. Quite quiet and decent dude coding a lot of decent things for IDE64 lately. It can also convert wavs to samples.
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
ahyes...soci it is. damn, i should have sent him a postcard also, since it is cardware |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 889 |
Well, we coded our last demo Arcanum entirely on CCS64... (and our next demo as well :) musics and gfx were ofcourse done on a real 64.. BTW, now I've got a question to ask :
Does anybody know of a good assembler/dev.kit on pc for the c64? this is what I need
- Turbo Ass compatible
- compiles NOT (well, not only) single files, but a snapshot of the 64-mem, INCLUDING REU CONTENTS
- allows me to link binaries to the ass. file, like
*=$000000 (REU) .file ="pinball table.prg"
or sth..
- should be compatible with VICE1.9 if possible (or with the latest windows version of CCS64)
this way I can code in one window, compile, switch to vice and with the press of a button load the snapshot file and everything will start immediately
offcourse, it would only have to change an existing snapshot I made earlier.. for example, If I make a snapshot of a freshly reset 64, the dev.kit would only have to change the memory-contents where I put my code/data...
ANY IDEAS? PLEASE HELP, I REALLY *NEEED* THIS FOR PINBALL DREAMS!
WVL
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
Coding demos on CCS?
Blasphemy i say! ;)
100% pure C64 here, using the TurboAsm.
On my desk there's a 128D, under the desk there's a dos-oriented 486 with the sole purpose of being an HD for the 64.
Xdevelopment sux, emus suck even more
Raven/64Ever |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
[Spit] i never liked Turbo Assembler - even before i swapped to C64Asm (which, incidentally, is pretty close to source compatible with Turbo) i used Zeus 64 in preference... =-)
And my version of Zeus supported transfer of data through a cable, so it was sort of cross development anyway. =-) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
either KM or MMS of Taboo made a DOS version of Turbo Assembler although I think it has some issues. I never used Turbo Assembler because I had docs for 6510+ first and learned its ways. Also, after using Turbo Assembler to try some stuff, I found some things were too messy. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: |
Quote: Well, we coded our last demo Arcanum entirely on CCS64... (and our next demo as well :) musics and gfx were ofcourse done on a real 64.. BTW, now I've got a question to ask :
Does anybody know of a good assembler/dev.kit on pc for the c64? this is what I need
- Turbo Ass compatible
- compiles NOT (well, not only) single files, but a snapshot of the 64-mem, INCLUDING REU CONTENTS
- allows me to link binaries to the ass. file, like
*=$000000 (REU) .file ="pinball table.prg"
or sth..
- should be compatible with VICE1.9 if possible (or with the latest windows version of CCS64)
this way I can code in one window, compile, switch to vice and with the press of a button load the snapshot file and everything will start immediately
offcourse, it would only have to change an existing snapshot I made earlier.. for example, If I make a snapshot of a freshly reset 64, the dev.kit would only have to change the memory-contents where I put my code/data...
ANY IDEAS? PLEASE HELP, I REALLY *NEEED* THIS FOR PINBALL DREAMS!
WVL
Sorry, I'm at least not aware of any snapshot compatible crossassembler.
You could "emulate" building snapshots with any assembler that supports including binary files (DASM for example, though that isn't TurboASM compatible.) Most assemblers don't support more than 64KB of memory, so it would have to be done in 64KB pieces, and then putting the pieces together for example with:
copy c64ram.bin+reubank1.bin+reubank2.bin snapshot.bin /B
Of course this way you'd have to learn the VICE snapshot file format yourself, and insert the necessary headers as needed.
But my real viewpoint is that the final game has to be able to load itself from disk anyway. So you could implement a Kernal routine-loader for the testversion, and turn True Drive emu off when loading. Combined with VICE's Warp mode the testversion would likely start under a second, if you have a fast PC. :) |
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Bud
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 14 |
I've been crossdeveloping on Linux for a while, using the following:
Editor: Cooledit (in X-Windows), which i had made a configfile for so that it showed the 6502 mnemonics in color.
Assembler: A6 (by Trireme/Entropy), which handles most Turbo Assembler stuff (.text, .byte, *=$2000 and so on)
Displayed the compiled program using prlink on the c64, or on Vice, where I loaded it directly from the harddrive (using a modified Action Replay cartridge image where the fastloader was disabled by default).
I also made some conversion tools in C on my Amiga, for converting pictures to hires (monomagic), ifli or sprites, and converting the binary into .byte textfiles so that i could include it in the source file.
I also made a picture displayer for DOS, which i still have to put on a website someday.... |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 889 |
Cadaver :
well, not really what I am looking for.. I really want to be able to change the REU contents on the fly, using the assembler.. ofcourse it will have to load by itself someday, but that's easy to make when I need it.. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
i'd really advice you to have a look at ca65... you can create such "snapshot" type of output by creating a custom linkerscript here.... that'd probably not be exactly what you want though (ready for load into vice that is) although i guess you could tweak it to do just that.
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White Flame
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136 |
Quote: Coding demos on CCS?
Blasphemy i say! ;)
100% pure C64 here, using the TurboAsm.
On my desk there's a 128D, under the desk there's a dos-oriented 486 with the sole purpose of being an HD for the 64.
Xdevelopment sux, emus suck even more
Raven/64Ever
Let's see, with cross-dev, I get:
- Greater than 40x25 visible edit space
- Multiple visible edit windows open at once
- More responsive system
- Save, compile, link, crunch, run in under 1 second
- Practically no chance of running out of drive space
- No 16-char filename limit
- Drop my symbol tables into VICE so I can debug with labels intact
- Write utilities in 32bit C++ with (practically) no memory restrictions :)
etc etc etc
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 332 |
Quote: Let's see, with cross-dev, I get:
- Greater than 40x25 visible edit space
- Multiple visible edit windows open at once
- More responsive system
- Save, compile, link, crunch, run in under 1 second
- Practically no chance of running out of drive space
- No 16-char filename limit
- Drop my symbol tables into VICE so I can debug with labels intact
- Write utilities in 32bit C++ with (practically) no memory restrictions :)
etc etc etc
Cross-devving is very nice for BIG Projects.
But for the actual Testing/Designing, a small Basic-Prg
running on a real C64 and controlling the Effect is more
responsive then "pure" xdev.
Another very good thing with crossdevelopment are
Makefiles. I never found a similar thing for the c64.
BTW, if you can crunch under 1 second, you are not using
exomizer :-)
Zed Yago
--
If everything is worth money
money is worth nothing |
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HackZ0id
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 6 |
I'm crossdev-ing almost all the time, using vice, 65cm, as65, SuSHi and .BAT make-scripts. The only things I do in TASM on a real C64 is prototypes or what would be called "proof of concept" in the corporate world.
You can easily maintain and build all parts of a demo this way, and a bugfix in a central library-function is compiled into all parts at the same time to.
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
There is nothing wrong with Cross developing demos/games.
Game programmers have been doing this for decades.
I agree that it was not such a good idea a few years back, but one important thing to consider is that C64 emulators are now extremely accurate and cycle exact featuring even 'tv emulation' for that authentic feel.
I suppose it is down to taste and what you are used to. but would you rather wait hours to crunch one c64 prog or convert data or do it all in less than a second?
I've released a CrossDevelopment GFX App known as BMP2MCI which basically converts a truecolor image to a 320x200x16 multicolor interlace image which can be saved out as raw c64 data.
Features high quality floyd steinberg dither as well as C64 interlaced emulation preview!
download it from.
www.thealgorithm.btinternet.co.uk/bmp2mciv1.zip
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Zeitgeist
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 22 |
Yeah, all nice ... but tell me: Am I completely stupid and missed it or where can we benefit from your bitmap editor then :-) ? I'd love to see a nice editing tool somewhen. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Hmmm... Seems like most people don't read..
This program is a converter. Nothing more, nothing less. Have I ever mentioned that it is an editor??
BTW V2 is released with more dithering algorithms as well as the ability to save as a C64 executable.
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Now here it begins to sound interesting even for dummies like me! ;D
By the way, I tried it out and the results are very nice! I'm looking forward to the FLI converter. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
BMP2MCI V2 has been released!!!
New Features
New Dithering modes (Stucki, Jarvis)
Save as Executable (Saves data as self running .prg)
Color tones
Download it from
http://www.thealgorithm.btinternet.co.uk/bmp2mciv2.zip
IFLI Converter coming soon.... |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Works surprisingly well, good work! |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
Algo is from UK? Unusual way for a Brit to spell colour :) |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
i do my tunes mostly in john player using vice, but i check the final result on my c64 (though it's a new sid machine) .. |
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Majikeyric
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 83 |
Hi everybody !!!
Six, I'm very interested in you PC C64 bitmap editor (because I didn't find yet one wich satisfy me much :o( ) but when will you release it ???
See ya |
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Testicle
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 131 |
hi,
i use the "professional assembler" from oliver stiller on vice. but i'm interested in good assemblers, which work without emulator.
could someone give me some good advice, what kind of pc-assembler is easy to use for programming c64-stuff on pc without emulator?
i'd like to try out different pc-tools, but i guess, i got used to the prof-ass too much, so that i keep on coding in/on vice... |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Quote: hi,
i use the "professional assembler" from oliver stiller on vice. but i'm interested in good assemblers, which work without emulator.
could someone give me some good advice, what kind of pc-assembler is easy to use for programming c64-stuff on pc without emulator?
i'd like to try out different pc-tools, but i guess, i got used to the prof-ass too much, so that i keep on coding in/on vice...
There are a few forum-topics here in CSDb about cross-developement.
Amont them are:
Cross-Development
turbo assembler for c64 on PC
(+ maybe some more)
You will find some info there. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Its finally here. BMP2IFLI
Converts Truecolor BMP images to IFLI with the ability to save as self running C64 Executable.
Extremely High Quality results
Programmable color channel sliders (for optimum color matching and dithering
download it from www.naveedkhugiani.cjb.net
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
Hi Algorithm. I have been experimenting with your BMP2IFLI lately and find it quite useful. The exe's are handy. I'm not sure what the structure of the raw IFLI format is, though? Do you have specs on it, or hints as to how to convert it to load in funpaint 2? |
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
Oh and BTW, for the person who asked about the bitmap editor, it's ready for beta testers. I have load koala and save koala, zoom-edit, box, line, and circle functions so far, but the interface is hi-res and still a bit big and awkward. Anyone who wants to help work the bugs out should email me: six@darklordsofchaos.com
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Hello!!
The file format for the RAW IFLI image saved with the converter is as follows..
OFFSET DATA
$0x0000 FLI pic1 color data (8k)
$0x2000 FLI pic1 image data (8k)
$0x4000 FLI pic2 color data (8k)
$0x6000 FLI pic2 image data (8k)
$0x8000 d800 color data (1k)
Hope that helps!!
The next version will have (hopefully) improved histogram routines and a slideshow generator as well as saving in many different formats (including funpaint)
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Six
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 289 |
That's exactly the help I needed. Thanks! |
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Brix
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 2 |
Quote: There are a few forum-topics here in CSDb about cross-developement.
Amont them are:
Cross-Development
turbo assembler for c64 on PC
(+ maybe some more)
You will find some info there.
@Testicle: Would you be so kind and upload the Professional Assembler to CSDB? My disc seems to be broken.
[Edit]: Oops.. account closed. Damnit. |
