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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 358 |
Church of C64
What is this Church of C64 thing about?
It makes me suspicious, because they come up with
a very hirarchical organisation and seem to introduce
"Pay members" again.
Monte Carlos
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
i remember a church of 64 altar on mekka/symposium... or was it breakpoint? |
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LordNikon
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 42 |
iirc i saw it on a breakpoint 2004 pic |
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
maybe both, it was also on the last mekka symposium 2002
http://www.abyss-online.de/ms2k2/imagepages/image81.htm |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: maybe both, it was also on the last mekka symposium 2002
http://www.abyss-online.de/ms2k2/imagepages/image81.htm
unfortunately a faked golden one =( |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
this church stuff sounds to me like someone wanting make money of c64 fans.. |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
This Church of 64 thing got nothing to do with both: the c64 altar on mekka symposium and breakpoint (ask Galaktus for details about it) nor with the "demo"-group of the same name that i am a humble member of and which doesn't release anything at all (8
Personally i got no problems with people opening other churches to praise the name of our 8-BIT home computer, but if this is somesort of pay-membership-thing i can only say let those evil heretic organisation burn! They don't deserve the name of our lord! Burn them to purify their soul and praise the name of the one and truly computer! |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
since the person behind the church appears to be
pingo/dixn riah i assume that its just another
one of his projects that we will never hear about again |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: since the person behind the church appears to be
pingo/dixn riah i assume that its just another
one of his projects that we will never hear about again
From coder to religion leader, how many ranks up is that? =)
If it was for free, yep maybe, but since it isn't, I keep my bucks to buy real stuff.
Somehow when I saw the C64.SK page I thought "Pater Pi!!! Wee!!!" but seems I have been wrong. Hmm, I will keep an eye on it, though (Hey Pi, Maybe you get membership for free? =)
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
I like the idea of having an official c64 religion, but i do not like the idea of this pay-membership-stuff.
Who is the guy behind that anyway? (I'm just curious) |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: I like the idea of having an official c64 religion, but i do not like the idea of this pay-membership-stuff.
Who is the guy behind that anyway? (I'm just curious)
Hollowman said "Pingo":
Pingo
He is an ex-coder of Civitas, did some few tools for them.
I agree with you, also dislike the paying stuff |
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The Overkiller
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 342 |
Quote: This Church of 64 thing got nothing to do with both: the c64 altar on mekka symposium and breakpoint (ask Galaktus for details about it) nor with the "demo"-group of the same name that i am a humble member of and which doesn't release anything at all (8
Personally i got no problems with people opening other churches to praise the name of our 8-BIT home computer, but if this is somesort of pay-membership-thing i can only say let those evil heretic organisation burn! They don't deserve the name of our lord! Burn them to purify their soul and praise the name of the one and truly computer!
Holy Inquisition .... NOW !!!!! :) |
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cbmhardware
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 19 |
I hear the two coconuts substituting horses ? ;)
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Nafcom: He's not a coder, he just did some graphics. All he could code was BASIC. And I haven't heard of any tools from him. He's much more into make-money-quick schemes than the scene. |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 358 |
There is no good reason for taking fees.
They claim they will offer interesting information, documents and many other stuff to registered members, but
which stuff is NOT available for free in the internet, today? I don't think, that they have special stuff, not known to the rest of the scene.
AND we do not want to have a two classes of sceners, members of CHURCH 64 and "normal" sceners.
The scene has developed from a highly illegal cracker and swapper scene(Which are our roots and we shouldnt regret them) with concurrence thoughts, where some sceners betrayed others to the cops and so on. And is now the uncomparable more liberate demo scene. We are practising FREE software similar to what linux users do.
To be nostalgic is just one part of scene life. We are inventing new things and we should think more modern about what this scene is doing.
Some sceners like those, inventing CHURCH 64, or which write bad party reports with nothing else than c64 self praise did NOT get a clue about what scene should be like.
The image about telling the people, beeing not part of the scene, about the c64 testament is ridicoulous for me.
We can think about some things, for which the c64 can be of use today, of course. But we have to think how to justify it. This is a completely different approache of making the c64 more popular than telling the people some sermon.
We are not TV preachers!!!
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Nafcom: He's not a coder, he just did some graphics. All he could code was BASIC. And I haven't heard of any tools from him. He's much more into make-money-quick schemes than the scene.
ok, confused it with Chico, sorry |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
I've just noticed from www.c64.sk portal a new church has opened: church of LDA STA. This one too asking money. It looks more like a provocative joke in reaction to church of C64. I think some people should separate these 3 things: c64, money making and religion. First of all c64 today is kept alive by the spirit of nostalgic sceners and their audiance. This community shares all c64 production for free, that's the spirit and that's the way we (people on this forum) want it to be, I guess. Secondly we should distinguish between religion and c64. I think the considering c64 a religion is going a bit too far. It might be just for a joke, but I think the stuff on the Church of C64 site, has some exagerations. This doesn't want to be a religious discussion, I just want to clearify that the c64 for itself doesn't save your soul...it might be used for this purpose,as it is one of God's gifts to us (a great gift too!!)as everything on earth, but it is not the main thing. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
why do you think a religion around the c64 is "going a bit too far"? after all the c64 does exist and god does not... i prefer praising things that actually exist because talking to non-existant persons can bring you into mental hospital. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
afterall "jedi" is a registered religion in one of the countrys :) |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
ready: "spirit of nostalgic sceners"? Please tell me you're joking. |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 358 |
The point is of how to bring the message of c64 to the masses. Should it be done by convincing people, that it makes sense, what we are doing, or should it be done by crying out the name c64 hysterically?
What we need is a critical and self critical dispute about the strength and the weaks of the c64 scene and NOT always that "We are the best" thing, which annoys me in the go64, in several party reports and how some sceners talk about users of other computer systems.
Of course it was fun to see a c64 altar on mekka.
And i like too some pc dizzing stuff, but things like the Jihad video go too far!!
I just have the impression, based on some observations discribed obove, that c64 fanatics founding a religion will not tolerate other ways of thinking about c64.
There is nothing bad about whatever religion itself, but how they always ended and were practised this is the point.
And Church 64 will be of that kind, i'm very sure.
Because, if Pater Pi would not be that fanatic he would be interested, that everybody who wants can get information of how to do things on c64 and not only the members.
This itself is not a democratic idea, violates the rules of free software and will not be understood, if c64 is in the press again.
That c64 is in the press sometimes is a nice thing, but we shouldn't take the reporters for nuts with some church thingy.
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
to Graham:this is no place for religious considerations, I know, but let me just say we obviously have a different point of view about God's existance. If anybody praise the c64 as a god, I respect that. My first post was just my personal point of view.
to Puterman: ok, "spirit of nostalic sceners" is not correct, since "nostalic" refears to something dead, while thanks to all the ethusiastic sceners the c64 is still ALIVE. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352 |
monta carlos: didnt pater pi state that he has nothing to do with that church of c64 thing? also would you care to explain what exactly c64 scene has to do with free software in the sence that linux does?
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 358 |
Sorry i meant Pingo!
To Pater Pi: Excuse me for this!
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Nightlord
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131 |
one really has to be bored and inactive to write more than three lines here :) |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
indeed. that, and thinking that the c64 is gods great gift. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
Pretty hefty area to fill it in. Thinka bout it. Church of...
...non-maskable interrupts (for the enthusiasts of using natural forms of contraception in public)
...open sideborders (for the immigrants)
...holy reset button (for those being detoxicated)
...pulsespeed (for the cardiologists)
See, you can even count on people outside the C64 scene to join. That much money and it just waits on the ground to be picked up.
PS. I'm bored as fuck (waiting for the 65-minutes-long wave file to be saved). Yes. |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
please..... |
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White Flame
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136 |
monte: "The point is of how to bring the message of c64 to the masses."
Erm, do the masses want the "message of C64"? Do we want "the masses"? There are still people starting out with the C64 for the first time, as well as people returning to it after decades away. I don't think that trying mechanize that process is a Good Thing(tm). Let the people of C64 come out of their own volition. |
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
Quote: monte: "The point is of how to bring the message of c64 to the masses."
Erm, do the masses want the "message of C64"? Do we want "the masses"? There are still people starting out with the C64 for the first time, as well as people returning to it after decades away. I don't think that trying mechanize that process is a Good Thing(tm). Let the people of C64 come out of their own volition.
Amen.
(sorry, I couldn't resist) |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 358 |
>>The point is of how to bring the message of c64 to the >>masses.
Sorry, but i didn't come up with that idea.
Read the Church 64 page.
But your'e right, i was going a little to far, too.
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
Well, maybe its just me, but what do 'church' & 'religion' have in common after all?
A church of c64 is IMHO really really nothing anybody needs. And IF there should be someone in need for that it might be considered if there's nothing else MUCH more needed!
As for the usual, modern church... I know only very few people going to church to praise someone honestly...
And I just dont wanna discuss the term 'love' - especially not when it concerns machines.
Just a statement :o) People loving machines dont love themselves.
If going to church helps - there you go.
Graham: the question of god is not one of existence. Though I believe rather in 'good' than god. But it can be seen pretty closely.
Whatever.
Oh, please add 'I think' to all I say. I hate guys (females doubly so) that claim truth with every crap they say.
One survivor... signing off...
enthusi. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
church is just a losely chosen term. just remember the COS - they're not a real church in the actual meaning, they're rather a cult. (ok, lets pretend the lavey-mansion is in fact a church)
i see the idea of the new church of c64 as a cult as well. though, without knowing pingu, i don't see that thing to happen. the whole idea is fucking absurd anyway. |
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carlsson
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 41 |
Interestingly, the web page said the membership fees would go to an application fee to register Church of C64 as an official religion in Sweden.
In Sweden, between 0.6 and 1.5% of your income, depending on which region you live in, is taxated to your favorite church of choice, or not at all if you have chosen not to a member of any church or religion.
If the founders of this movement actually would succeed in registering a religion, the members can in theory assign their tax money to the C64 church. Dunno if that would end up as pocket money to Pingo et. al, if it would sponsor a web site or come to good use. |
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Rattus
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 34 |
Yep...
I think the church of C64 or whatever is kind of a sick joke... I consider myself highly religious... I almost never go to church, but I believe in God and Jesus... So what ? But I really can't take it anymore with these 'churches'... Wrong, all wrong...
>"Just a statement :o) People loving machines dont love >themselves."
And besides my wife and my two lovely rats, I also love all of my Commodore 64's.
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
How is it with registering a religion ins weden? is money all you need? i guess not, at least not here in germany. there are a lot of criterias that must be filled with having a huge followership being one of the main (oh god, my english sucks:=)
To be honest, I also thought about how nice it would be to have that small&inactive demo-group changed into some losely based "religion" with a huge followship so we'll get some church-building from the state for regular use (for parties ofcourse) |
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Rattus
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 34 |
Fine ,but don't ever call it CHURCH. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
pater pi, well, everything that wants to count as religious movement in whatever way - other than christianity - is per definition a sect in germany (i still have the papers that state exactly that somewhere), but can be treated as philosphical congrecation/cult if it meets certain terms and rules in a wisely chosen way .. not sure how it works in other countries, but if it's that easy to register religious movements just by handing money over to the government, i start to question another part of the not-so-openmindedness of our state. =) |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
My personal point of view about "love". Enthusi said:"People loving machines dont love themselves" and Rattus said:"And besides my wife and my two lovely rats, I also love all of my Commodore 64's". When can I say I love someone? I truly love someone when I freely decide to give up part of my time, comfort, life, coding on my C64 or whatever thing I consider important to dedicate myself to that person. Jesus gave up his life for all of us, he showed us how far people's "love" for themself could go, being an obstacole to many who had power at his time, just because he claimed true love. If I truly love material things, money, power, ..... I give my life for that and in my humanity I realize I do this too often, but I also know this kills me. Please don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying material things are bad, not at all, I'm just saying I think that considering material things as a cult or as a god, is an abomination. We are made to love each other and material things are just intruments to do this. I think that programming on the c64 can be both an abomination as well as a holy thing. If I devote myself to programming while a friend of mine is in need of my presence for whatever reason, I consider it an abomination. It is a holy thing when it brings us toghether, brings us on this forum, realizing how many different points of view we have and that it is nice to respect each other and learn from each other. Being on this forum thanks the to c64, it is also nice that we discuss what love is and that everybody may give his/her word about it. One day someone asked me a fundamental question, a question some demo sceners pointed out on a christmas demo a few year ago: what's the meaning of life? Personally I think love for each other is the meaning of life. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
oh, my bad.
For me true love means beeing loved back. Its an interactive 'thing'. Sure I can be 'in love' (damn, seems like I'll need quite many ''') withsomeone not sharing it (yes, I think that happened to me before :o).
My C64 is my precious for sure :o)
And I in some way love my cat but for me the love to a nonliving thing can not exist. Its bipolar in every way.
. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I also love my C64, but the important thing is: He loves me, too! We're one hell of a couple! ;-)
http://www.demodungeon.com/love.png |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Why does a Religion need Love ?
A God is something you pray to, and except for GWBush, most of the Time he does not answer!
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
Every some years a group of Christian priests are sent two by two, randomly coupled, all over Europe bringing to whatever place they happen to the message that God loves us. They usually start their journey with no money and ask for hospitality by churches or houses. They often get refused, thats ok since Jesus was refused too, but still supported by God. Some years ago two of them got badly refused by a priest they asked hospitality to. In that moment they were proved really hard since they had been starving for days, collecting refuses all over
.time passed
.this summer they got chosen together and were sent in the same place they had been before. They were despaired. When they got to the place they went again to the same priest who had refused them the time before. When he saw them he stared crying and gave them hospitality, saying he had been wishing some day they could come back so that he show them how sorry he was for the previous time.
I wrote all this because I think that God wants to make a story with each one of us. Christian religion goes hand in hand with love. In life we often experience deaths, every day, when we are refused or we suffer, etc. but God offers us a way of not dieing under these things. It is also true we are free to refuse God and think he does not care about us. God does not force us, if we want we can notice him. His greatest act of love to us was Jesus who proved that with God we can win death. He resurrected, so can we all the times we experience something that kills us (morally of course) and pray God to heal our sufferings. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
know the power of your pills. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
"Christian religion goes hand in hand with love."
u have any idea how much ppl were killed in the name of god?
that sentence sounds like a joke to me |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
true, nothing more true that the Christian Church during inquisition killed many people. Humans made many crimes in the name of God and the Chruch regognized its mistakes during the last years. The Pope in the '80s asked for forgiveness for the sins the Church made to Galileo Galilei. It is also true that the Church has done so many good things, remeber Mother Teresa of Calcut and her dedication to leprose people. The point is that man is free to commit sin, but God still has love for those sinners, even if he doesn't approve their acting. Don't focus on what man did in the past, we should instead seek God in our lives, taking into account that humans may be wrong many times. The sentence "Christian religion goes hand in hand with love" refears to the relation God wants to have with us, in fact I didn't write Christian Church, due to the faulties we all know.
About the pills...I wouldn't have written these things years ago, I do now that I realized how much God acts in my life, I speak just because of my personal experience. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
yes, remember mother teresa, heres a couple of quotes of her to
remind you all
"I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child, a direct killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself."
"Any country that accepts abortion is the poorest of the poor"
and always remember:
"Once that living love is destroyed by contraception, abortion follows very easily"
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: yes, remember mother teresa, heres a couple of quotes of her to
remind you all
"I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child, a direct killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself."
"Any country that accepts abortion is the poorest of the poor"
and always remember:
"Once that living love is destroyed by contraception, abortion follows very easily"
Veeeery evil quotes. Who is next? Pope? Actually this topic is about "Church of C64" and not about atheists versus believers, liberals versus conservatives etc.etc. I would rather reccomend 1. lock it or 2. stop wasting time solving fundamental differencies between different views on this world. I don't care about gay marriages. I think that contraceptives are important. I accept that abortions are unavoidable. ...and I believe that human stupidity infinite. P.S.: I'm christian catholic. |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
To Hollowman:The problem, I think, is that as long as people are said that God loves us, almost everybody is ok, but when people are offered certain life style (i.e. no abortion, no contraception) they totally refuse God. I can understand that, since whenever we are touched in important matters we defend ourselves at 360 degrees. What Im trying to say is that there are certain issues that the Christian Church defends that are not accepted by many, but this should not preclude people from seeking God. During my life I have wrestled with these issues too, I could not understand why I was invited not to make love with my girlfriend before marriage and I hated that!!!! Still I thought I needed God to give a sense to my life. I have sought God even if I didnt agree on everything with the Church, but I always left a door opened in my mind that in spite of my stubbornness there might be a slight chance that I might be wrong. Its ok to argue and disagree on certain religious issues, but I think we always should consider that we might be wrong. God loves us even if we use contraception and do abortion, but He also knows these things are bad for us
..it takes time to realize this, be patient and live your life as you want, but from time to time stop and think if God wants something different from you, try to leave a door open in your heart to God, try to pray asking him to show you his will, theres nothing that you can loose with it, it doesnt take much effort. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: Veeeery evil quotes. Who is next? Pope? Actually this topic is about "Church of C64" and not about atheists versus believers, liberals versus conservatives etc.etc. I would rather reccomend 1. lock it or 2. stop wasting time solving fundamental differencies between different views on this world. I don't care about gay marriages. I think that contraceptives are important. I accept that abortions are unavoidable. ...and I believe that human stupidity infinite. P.S.: I'm christian catholic.
evil quotes? that depends on your own personal view. if you search the web you will notice that both pro choice and pro life sites use the very same mother teresa quotes to prove their point |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: evil quotes? that depends on your own personal view. if you search the web you will notice that both pro choice and pro life sites use the very same mother teresa quotes to prove their point
I wonder then, what was your point. But I would rather avoid turning this to another flaming discussion. |
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Trash
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Well, if god really do exist I don't believe he would want us to nag at him (praying), I think he would have larger stuff to take care of.
To you believers: If god exists and he / she is almighty, would he then be able to create a rock heavy enough for him not being able to lift it from the ground?
If your answer is 'yes' then you're lying because if he could he can't be almighty.
If the answer is 'no' then you've just proven that god isn't almighty (if he exists at all) and that he has limitations which are unacceptable for a god, therefore further proving he / she doesn't exist.
To you non-believers: I was an atheist until I discovered that I am god! |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: Well, if god really do exist I don't believe he would want us to nag at him (praying), I think he would have larger stuff to take care of.
To you believers: If god exists and he / she is almighty, would he then be able to create a rock heavy enough for him not being able to lift it from the ground?
If your answer is 'yes' then you're lying because if he could he can't be almighty.
If the answer is 'no' then you've just proven that god isn't almighty (if he exists at all) and that he has limitations which are unacceptable for a god, therefore further proving he / she doesn't exist.
To you non-believers: I was an atheist until I discovered that I am god!
Amen. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
heh i find it amusing when people talk about god they depend on the bible or similar. if you say "damnit, there's really a lot of bullshit written in there, how can you believe in THAT?" the answer is either "ok there's lot of bullshit but THE GOD THING IS REAL" or "bible is 100%". both answers i cannot take serious. sorry, if you believe that the earth was built about 4000 years ago in 7 days and evolution theory, astronomy and a lot of other sciences are bullshit, i cannot help you anymore. and if you don't believe in the bible why believe in god at all? |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Ok, the Bible may not be 100% accurate, but i still consider most of the stuff in programmers reference guide to be true |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
And hey, nerds, don't forget that god is against masturbation! |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quote: And hey, nerds, don't forget that god is against masturbation!
i dont think so. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Matt 5:28-29 (NIV) [Jesus:] "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
@trash: God is dead, and we killed him.
@ready: I dont want to get too personal, but I cant imagine staying with a women together for the rest of my life, before having sex with her. Is sex this unimportant for her ? Did you really marry her ?
Zed Yago
--
If everything is worth money
money is worth nothing |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: i dont think so.
read up on Onan in the bible, Onan didnt really masturbate
it was coitus interruptus, but still the swedish word
for masturbation is onani. God obviously dont like men who
waste their seed |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
@yago: we are not married yet and we are still keeping up our relation wondefully without having any sex. We are both tempted, of course,but our choice to wait until marriage is actually because sex is so important that we want to be sure I am the right person for her and she is the right person for me. Sounds strange I know, sounded strange to me too, years ago, before I got clear what God wants from me. First of all I and my girlfriend have to find out if we love each other for what we are, sex is not the main thing, it comes with marriage. I want to make clear that I don't miscredit sex, I'm just saying there's a right time for everything. Most people don't agree, I know, but I tell you I know many of my friends who haven't had sex before marriage, still considering sex very important. I think certain choices we take depend on how God acts in us, not directly from us. |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2581 |
Quite interesting discussion here, although way off topic... The astonishing thing in religious people like ready. is for me how certain they are of what they believe "god wants them to do". This seems to be the base for all sorts of intolerance. Because it means that the other people are not able or, even worse, not willing to listen to god. And then it is only a small step to trying to convince the other with words or weapons, which is what we see every day all around the globe. And I do not only mean the "Jihad", the christians do not have learnt their lesson at all (look at Northern Ireland or the mostly muslim-christian clashes in Africa or Asia). So god doen not want me to have sex before marriage? He (or she?!) wants me to keep my fingers off my dick? He (or perhaps even "it", that´s neutral at least) does not want me to use condoms? Then I am happy with my ears not being able to hear that rules. Or perhaps it tells me just the opposite? How about "Have fun, as long as you don´t harm anybody"? No, I think that is something that every being equipped with a working brain (and willing to use it!) can come up with. And everyone personally is the only instance to judge between "good" and "bad". If more people would use their brains and not listened to any religion, we would have a lot less problems on earth.
And by the way: the pope rehabilitating Galileo Galilei after 400 years and under massive pressure of losing his followers (who learned to use their brains not because of, but in spite of the religion!) seems to me a very very very small step forward; especially when at the same time on the other hand condoms are damned, thus harming and killing hundred thousands of people by HIV. And this is only one example of how harmful also the christian religions still act today, in the 21st cantury. Not to mention the "Crusade against the axis of evil" by certain very "christian" politicians who also claim to know what god wants them to do... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: Quite interesting discussion here, although way off topic... The astonishing thing in religious people like ready. is for me how certain they are of what they believe "god wants them to do". This seems to be the base for all sorts of intolerance. Because it means that the other people are not able or, even worse, not willing to listen to god. And then it is only a small step to trying to convince the other with words or weapons, which is what we see every day all around the globe. And I do not only mean the "Jihad", the christians do not have learnt their lesson at all (look at Northern Ireland or the mostly muslim-christian clashes in Africa or Asia). So god doen not want me to have sex before marriage? He (or she?!) wants me to keep my fingers off my dick? He (or perhaps even "it", that´s neutral at least) does not want me to use condoms? Then I am happy with my ears not being able to hear that rules. Or perhaps it tells me just the opposite? How about "Have fun, as long as you don´t harm anybody"? No, I think that is something that every being equipped with a working brain (and willing to use it!) can come up with. And everyone personally is the only instance to judge between "good" and "bad". If more people would use their brains and not listened to any religion, we would have a lot less problems on earth.
And by the way: the pope rehabilitating Galileo Galilei after 400 years and under massive pressure of losing his followers (who learned to use their brains not because of, but in spite of the religion!) seems to me a very very very small step forward; especially when at the same time on the other hand condoms are damned, thus harming and killing hundred thousands of people by HIV. And this is only one example of how harmful also the christian religions still act today, in the 21st cantury. Not to mention the "Crusade against the axis of evil" by certain very "christian" politicians who also claim to know what god wants them to do...
Well put. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Yeah! Well put. It's always easier to lean back on some kind of mysterical phenomena when you have to agrue for or against something, like "god told me too", "god wants me too" etc etc, instead of using your own grey cells.
_Still_ there is room for a creator, although he/she/it safly resides inside/before big bang currently. As science moves forward, god moves backward. It's a loose-loose situation for god and his/hers/its followers IMO.
Have fun and join the church! |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
@bugjam:
About intolerance: I just gave my own experience about my life and what God means to me, without point my finger to anybody, I didn't judge anybody. Besides this, I've already said that we are free to have sex, use condoms and masturbate. I've never heard of anybody being killed by a thunder while masturbating because God was mad at him/her.
About Ireland: NO ONE, NOBODY can call him/herself a Christian and practice violence. Remeber what Jesus said: "Love other people as yourself" (sorry for translation which might not be 100% right). He preaced love even for his enemies. On the cross he praid for them who were crucifing him: "Father, forgive them because they don't know what their are doing!" He didn't say "Father, kill these bastards for what they are doing!!". I've already said that we are humans and the Church is made of humans who sometimes do wrong stuff. Crusades were said to be do in the name of God, I guess they were made for personal interest, for power sake. I think them people misunderstood the very roots of the Christian Church, the message of love Jesus Christ wanted to leave us. Once again I remind you he did not rebel to his enemies, Jesus even stopped his disciple Peter when he pointed the sword to the romans who were there to crucify Jesus.
About Galileo: would have been better if the Pope didn't apologize at all? I don't think so. The Church as been so far behind during the last centuries, I think we should recognize its merits, at least when they are obvious. Especially when the Church admist its mistakes. Why do you want to see only what you want about the Chruch. Ok you might not agree on many rules "imposed" (remember we are free), but how can you deny all the good things the Church did for the forgotten ones? Once again I remind you Mother Teresa's dedication to leprose people. Nobody asked you to agree on everything, nor anybody forces you to do this.
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Religion is really not the issue in Northern Ireland anyway. Although it has sometimes played a part in the history of the troubles, it's not the cause of the violence in more recent times. The troubles are essentially to do with diferent cultures and nationalism. Religion is perhaps a part of those cultures, but taking religion out of the equation would certainly not solve the problems. There are many people on both "sides" who have no religious beliefs at all. AFAIK, the churches there have always condemed the violence since its rise in the 60's. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing, and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believe in Him."
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
"I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my father, brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine." - Charles Darwin
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2581 |
Quote: @bugjam:
About intolerance: I just gave my own experience about my life and what God means to me, without point my finger to anybody, I didn't judge anybody. Besides this, I've already said that we are free to have sex, use condoms and masturbate. I've never heard of anybody being killed by a thunder while masturbating because God was mad at him/her.
About Ireland: NO ONE, NOBODY can call him/herself a Christian and practice violence. Remeber what Jesus said: "Love other people as yourself" (sorry for translation which might not be 100% right). He preaced love even for his enemies. On the cross he praid for them who were crucifing him: "Father, forgive them because they don't know what their are doing!" He didn't say "Father, kill these bastards for what they are doing!!". I've already said that we are humans and the Church is made of humans who sometimes do wrong stuff. Crusades were said to be do in the name of God, I guess they were made for personal interest, for power sake. I think them people misunderstood the very roots of the Christian Church, the message of love Jesus Christ wanted to leave us. Once again I remind you he did not rebel to his enemies, Jesus even stopped his disciple Peter when he pointed the sword to the romans who were there to crucify Jesus.
About Galileo: would have been better if the Pope didn't apologize at all? I don't think so. The Church as been so far behind during the last centuries, I think we should recognize its merits, at least when they are obvious. Especially when the Church admist its mistakes. Why do you want to see only what you want about the Chruch. Ok you might not agree on many rules "imposed" (remember we are free), but how can you deny all the good things the Church did for the forgotten ones? Once again I remind you Mother Teresa's dedication to leprose people. Nobody asked you to agree on everything, nor anybody forces you to do this.
Intolerance: I still see a contradiction. If you say "I realized what god wants me to do", you imply that he wants this from everybody. Because god can have only one will, right? And by that you imply that everybody who has sex before marriage (or masturbates or uses condoms) acts against god´s will. We are not thunderstruck or -instead, and much more likely indeed- punished by members of the church -as fulfillers of god´s will on earth-, mainly because the church lost it´s power due to too many people starting to use their own brains. They lost the power, it is that simple. In other countries (like some fundamentalist muslim states) they still have it, and there the terror against people acting against "god´s will" is dreadful. See the parallels?
Violence: I think 2000 years of christian church history prove the opposite. The problem obviously does not lie in the christian religion, but in every form of earthly organisation of it.
Galileo: I cannot see any good in the pope admitting some "errors" (and at the same time commiting lots of new ones) just for the sake of preserving a bit of it´s dwindling power. And the so-called "good deeds" are done mostly for the very same reason. Good deeds helped and help to keep the status quo (with a very good position for the church, power- and moneywise), that´s it.
That does not mean that I do not think that christian individuals (!) did lots of good things, but the church? No way. |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2581 |
Quote: "It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing, and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believe in Him."
This is plainly brilliant!!! Who said that? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: This is plainly brilliant!!! Who said that?
Unfortunately I don't know. Try Google. |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
@hollowman: Jesus said that 1 regretting sinner is better then lots of true believers, when they reach heaven. (or something like that, i am not good in quoting the bible)
@bugjam: Just because ready knows what god wants from him, ready does not say that he knows what god wants from other people.
There are sure some intolerant christians, but there are also intolerant atheists (e.g. nazis).
I have not seen intolerance in this thread, and i have never met intolerance at any c64-party i ever celebrated.
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
speccy sucks! |
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aeeben
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 44 |
http://www.eroakirkosta.fi |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2581 |
@yago:
"@bugjam: Just because ready knows what god wants from him, ready does not say that he knows what god wants from other people."
It seems not conclusive to me that "god´s will" can differ from person to person.
"There are sure some intolerant christians, but there are also intolerant atheists (e.g. nazis).
I have not seen intolerance in this thread, and i have never met intolerance at any c64-party i ever celebrated."
Don´t get me wrong: of course I let everybody have his/her belief and be happy with it. Still, talking about "god´s will" is the base for intolerance against others.
And do not mix up atheists with people replacing the mystical god/allah/jahwe or whatever with persons or things, be it the nation, race, Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jung Il or who-/whatever. The nazis are no atheists at all, nor are the (stalinistic) communists. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Bugjam: The biggest problem with atheists and non-believers is that they constantly mix up the (catholic) church and god. Believing in some higher entity doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the church. If ready. adherese to the christian/catholic principles then it's fine with me. As long as he doesn't want to convince me that his way of living is better than mine. Which he didn't and I appreciate this. But this discussion is really getting boring now... |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing, and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believe in Him."
IMHO things like that are just a good excuse not to believe in god, and make yourself safe if god exists though.
Pathetic.
If you *dont* believe in god, why do you live your life as what if he/she still exists, and make sure you'll get into heaven ? This is worse than simply not believing. This is like knowing god exists, but living as what if not, but making sure besides u'll get into heaven.
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
@bugjam: somewhere in the Bible, in one of the Vangels, Jesus says we have different charisms. Someone is called to be a priest, someone in called to get married, someone is called to code on the c64, someone is called to work at some place..... there's a God's will for each one of us, and each one of us can find God's will in his/her history just by leaving some room in his/her heart for God. God's will for us is to make us happy. I tried to find happyness in many things in life, sex, videogames, studying, friends, money... but I realized that none of these things had happyness just by itself. I happened to find myself alone once, away from home, and there some friends who told me there's a God who loves me. At first I looked at them with suspicion because I knew they acted weird: no sex b4 marrieage, praying a God I berely belived in, no masturbation, and so on.... they didnt impose me anything, nor tried to convince me they were better than me. They just lived their life with God and I saw how happy they were, even in front of certain tragedies of life such as somebodys death. The choices I took in my life occured little by little, at first there were many things I didnt (and still dont) understand, just like you, all I knew was that there was a chance that God loved me, everything else came after that. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
"If you *dont* believe in god, why do you live your life as what if he/she still exists"
Oswald, from where did you get this from? The quote says: "try to make the world a better place for your fucking being in it". There's absolutely nothing about living your life as if God or Gods exist.
I don't see anything pathetic about living as a person who's absolutely careless about any kind of religions whilst trying to live a life by its own decisions or rules. Let *me* be the responsible to decide what is good for me and my environment. And gosh, even if a christian, muslim, jew, buddhist or some other God actually exists, I don't fucking care, as long as my morality stays clean. According to you Oswald, I *must* prefer one side of view, and the only choices are to believe and curse non-believers or to refuse God and hate the church-boys, yes?
For some time, I was interested in christianity, however, I met with strong doubts in some of its ultimate truths. Yet, I still celebrate christmas and the resurrection, and probably you too.
By the way, according to the Bible, you should relate to the christian God as a male. No he/she, but *He*, the heavenly father of Jesus, mona mie.
Further, I don't think that this may be the most appropriate place to discuss belief. You have just read my last post on this topic. Amen.
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2581 |
@Steppe: Well, it wasn´t me who came up with the pope...
@ready.: "Someone is called to be a priest, someone in called to get married, someone is called to code on the c64, someone is called to work at some place..... there's a God's will for each one of us, and each one of us can find God's will in his/her history just by leaving some room in his/her heart for God."
Careful with that... If I had to continue the list, I would come up with "someone is called to murder, someone is called to wage war (against the axis of evil)..." and so on. With god´s will you can excuse quite a lot of not-very-nice stuff. I just think that one could use his/her brain in a better way than trying to guess what god has in mind with his/her life.
But nevertheless, I do not want to spoil your happiness with your belief. Just wanted to make my point. |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
@bugjam: I agree with you, mostly. Sure there's been and there still are people who murder, steal and do all kinds of sins claiming they are in the name of God. God also gave us a brain and we are ALL called to use it to distinguish what's good or bad. So the point turns into the question "how can I act in God'ìs will?" or rather "How can I tell if somebody is acting in God's will?" Once again Jesus's life can help us. Somewhere in the Vangels Jesus says that christians (doing God's will) can be recognized among those who love each other. Surely someone who murders has a problem in loving and donig God's will for him. We are all called to love and to be loved. The matter is how to do it. Here comes in God's will for each one of us. Am I called to love in my work place? Am I called to love in my marriage? Should I be a missionary? Am I to show love killing people? Surely not!!
Even thou this discussion is off of topic, I'm glad I found curiosity and respect for each other in this forum and these two things are very important for me to grow and I think for you too. Thanks everybody. |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing, and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believe in Him."
IMHO things like that are just a good excuse not to believe in god, and make yourself safe if god exists though
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if you read the bible you'll find soon out that merits and behave aren't the most important things God most appreciate in a christian. it's all about to believe in him and to give Him glory even in the most hard times.
i don't want to say more about this. i know a lot of ppl don't like these discussions since this is a c64 forum.
.amen ;-) |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
I think it's interesting, especially when you consider how this discussion started (8 |
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finchy
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 18 |
Back to what it's all about: membership is for free now. Take a look http://www.churchofc64.info and become a believer ;) - and take it not too serious, as one said, there are also jedi-knights around the earth, so why not become a "knight of the byte" (yeah, lame joke, just try to overread it.)
finchy |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Back to what it's all about: membership is for free now. Take a look http://www.churchofc64.info and become a believer ;) - and take it not too serious, as one said, there are also jedi-knights around the earth, so why not become a "knight of the byte" (yeah, lame joke, just try to overread it.)
finchy
Still it's a tad too crazy for me :) |
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Duke
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 20 |
So what are the perks if we convert/sign up? Every religion has perks. Do we get free c64's? Floppy disks? Virgins? Tell me it's virgins? Alright, just to be safe I better sign up. |
