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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
lemon 64
hey guys - ive been checking out old c64 stuff on the net and i dont know if you realised there is another website called lemon 64 quite similar to this one. its miles better than this site, much more info on it and better discussions. you should try it out if you have never been there. its www.lemon64.com i cant imagine there are many people who actually use this once they have discovered lemon64 |
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Blackspawn
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Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 11 |
Uhm... Lemon has a pretty different focus than this site IMHO. While this site tries to gather all information about and all release from the C64 _scene_ (ie. crack/demo scene), Lemon's main focus is on C64 _games_. So these two sites are not directly comparable. They both have their place. |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
MuhahahahahahaaharharharhahahahihihihhahahARGFH...
i fear i'll die of a heart-attack :)
hahaha
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
@frdiga:
How do you come to the conclusion that CSDb and Lemon64 are similiar? I don't see any important similarities. Well, they both have a forum (like 1000 other sites) and are about the C64 (like 1000 other sites), but where is the database?
Also as Blackspawn points out, lemon64 is about (L/G)ames and not the real thing (=demos), which makes it pretty irrelevant for most the people that come here.
What is it you mean that are similiar between lemon64 and CSDb?
(well, i don't know lemon64 that well, but it doesn't *seem* like it is a database of C64-productions. It isn't it is?) |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
(my post sounded like i think lemon64 sux - i don't, but just don't see any real similarities) |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
hihihihope my reaction ..hihi..
well, i hope it's. not taken in the wrong way...8)
just...this post is just too funny..hihi |
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smila
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 26 |
after my crazed red mist remarks i think both sites are cool, very different but both cool. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
I respect both sites too as everybody can see at www.c64.sk in the left navigational pannel. I first wanted to make forum at C64.sk myself but then I thought it could be much better to support and link the other good forums and not to split the powers. Lemon64 is a good place to discuss games, and CSDB is a good place to discuss scene stuff (releases, parties etc). |
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Warbaby
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Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 60 |
Lemon64 is only about games.
Csdb is about people who actually CREATE something instead of playing ancient games all the time.
Csdb is by far the best site and I visit it every day. |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Lemon64 is only about games.
Csdb is about people who actually CREATE something instead of playing ancient games all the time.
Csdb is by far the best site and I visit it every day.
whats wrong with playing old games?
why do people still make things on c64? why dont you just use a new pc or something? games are much more interesting than demos
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
"games are much more interesting than demos" :))))
Now, how do you come to THAT conclusion??!?!!? |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Fadiga, you posted this a little early I think, April 1st is months away. |
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Skyrider
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Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 4 |
Quote: Lemon64 is only about games.
Csdb is about people who actually CREATE something instead of playing ancient games all the time.
Csdb is by far the best site and I visit it every day.
I would'nt say Lemon64 is "only" about games. It main focus were once about games only, but now it's more like a mixed community by both gamers and sceners. |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Fadiga, you posted this a little early I think, April 1st is months away.
well, let me think.... you can play games - i guess the words 'play' and 'games' would hopefully mean you are having 'fun' |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
gaming is for kiddies, dude! (Well, okay... We all play now and then...) Demos is art - if you are really interested in computers you'll see the coolness in demos. We're making stuff on a C64 for many reasons, but the most important must be that the C64-style is cool, and that it is a great challenge to make stuff that rulez on a C64 (for reasons that are obvious - 64KB ram and 0.9MHz being some of them). |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: gaming is for kiddies, dude! (Well, okay... We all play now and then...) Demos is art - if you are really interested in computers you'll see the coolness in demos. We're making stuff on a C64 for many reasons, but the most important must be that the C64-style is cool, and that it is a great challenge to make stuff that rulez on a C64 (for reasons that are obvious - 64KB ram and 0.9MHz being some of them).
who says gaming is for kids? i would be more inclined to say that kids would use words such as 'rulez' and 'dude' but thats beside the point.
anyway, i agree that the c64 is ultra cool - where can i see some of these demos?
what i mean is i enjoy using the c64 because it reminds me of when i was a kid - i doubt that someone of 10-15 would be interested in a c64 without having the nostalga part there as well. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Fadiga: Try clicking on one of the "Top Demos" links in the blue box next to this forum, and then scroll down to the download links... ;-)
If I were you I wouldn't post such strong statements ("miles better than this site" etc.) about the CSDB without finding out what this site is actually *about* first. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Seems like someone has a serious intelectual blackout today. First saying that this site is not as good as another site then suddenly not knowing anything about this site at all. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
I have, in recent few years, witnessed 4-6 year olds enjoying C64 (real machine, not emulator), without any nostalgia, does this count?
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
not the first one:
"whats wrong with playing old games?"
"why dont you just use a new pc or something?"
the both (with having 1 sentence between them" fit perfectly together, don't you think so? |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
fadiga:
yeah, i could sound like an old man with a long white beard, if i wanted to, but i'm not old and i don't have one of those lame beards. It's okay u don't like how i talk, i don't give a fuck.
Anyway, about the demos, you can (as mermaid said) ofkoz find some here in CSDb, and there are a lot of C64 FTP-sites too. There've been made a lotta good and a lotta bad demos for da C64, so don't be put off if the first one you see doesn't totally rule. There are a lot of cool demos where the kewlest stuff mas been made with a C64, and you just go "wow! that can be done on a C64!!".
Finally, demos run/sound/look better on a real C64 plugged into a TV, so you should see the demos on a real C64, if u wanna get the best experience out of it. |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Cadaver: nope! |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Pixman is still 15, I wonder if nostalgia is what keeps him interested in the C64? |
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Board Rider
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 15 |
My God Is This Dude Lame Or What... Lemon has to do with games and such and this has to do with Sceners and other stuff like that
Mark Newsom
Board Rider/CSD!
Long Live The 64! :) |
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
Hmm well, obviously never been part of the demoscene, and therefor understandable why these remarks.
just saying the wrong things at the wrong place dude ;)
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Cybernator
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 154 |
Not an interesting topic, but...
If you take 2 sites like these, and say this one sux, the other one rulez, it's so lame. They are both special in some way. Before I hit the internet, I've mostly sticked to games. I've only had some stupid demos with a bitmap and scroll message, which explains my attitude. After I got the connection, I found _AWESOME_ demos (do I need to name them?) and I simply started to like them a lot. Demos are art! And I don't agree with CyberBrain when he says: "Gaming is for kids".
You'll only find sceners at the CSDb. That's good for people like me, and all the others here. Sceners create stuff, but not everyone is a scener. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't respect the others.
Most of the guys at Lemon64 are not sceners, but there're sceners, too. The scene stuff is less talked about, but I do like the other stuff.
And yes, all of this is because of different _tastes_.
Quote from Fadiga:
"Games are much more interesting than demos."
Quote from CyberBrain:
"Now, how do you come to THAT conclusion??!?!!?"
Because he prefers games, just like you prefer demos. :)
At least, we all agree with this: C64 RULEZ !!!
End of discussion. :P |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: not the first one:
"whats wrong with playing old games?"
"why dont you just use a new pc or something?"
the both (with having 1 sentence between them" fit perfectly together, don't you think so?
no |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Not an interesting topic, but...
If you take 2 sites like these, and say this one sux, the other one rulez, it's so lame. They are both special in some way. Before I hit the internet, I've mostly sticked to games. I've only had some stupid demos with a bitmap and scroll message, which explains my attitude. After I got the connection, I found _AWESOME_ demos (do I need to name them?) and I simply started to like them a lot. Demos are art! And I don't agree with CyberBrain when he says: "Gaming is for kids".
You'll only find sceners at the CSDb. That's good for people like me, and all the others here. Sceners create stuff, but not everyone is a scener. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't respect the others.
Most of the guys at Lemon64 are not sceners, but there're sceners, too. The scene stuff is less talked about, but I do like the other stuff.
And yes, all of this is because of different _tastes_.
Quote from Fadiga:
"Games are much more interesting than demos."
Quote from CyberBrain:
"Now, how do you come to THAT conclusion??!?!!?"
Because he prefers games, just like you prefer demos. :)
At least, we all agree with this: C64 RULEZ !!!
End of discussion. :P
well said mate!
what i mean is that surely demos are just for looking at? someone quoted earlier -'demos are art' well if they are, then they are for looking at? i guess i should try some new ones out first though - point taken.
what i mean when i say i use the c64 for nostalgia is becuase ive got a pc, ps2 etc... and obviously not many of the old c64 games can hold the attention for too long like they used to - with some obvious exceptions like armalyte, wizball etc... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Fadiga, seems like you have finally accepted this site without explicitly saying that.
Fadiga said: "what i mean when i say i use the c64 for nostalgia is becuase ive got a pc, ps2 etc... and obviously not many of the old c64 games can hold the attention for too long like they used to - with some obvious exceptions like armalyte, wizball etc..."
Yes that's the way it is. Most people here know that from creative point of view, they have powerful software on PC/Amiga/Mac where they can create more powerful stuff etc. for more broad audience in comparison to simplicity of a C64... but still I don't think we are here because of nostalgia, it's simply attractive quite cool being a scener ;). Some people loose this feeling sooner, some later. ;-)
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
And some never... ;-D |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
ok thats cool - i was not aware that there was such a strong allegience to this particular site - i just assumed that people were looking from a nostalgic point of view. in that sense, lemon appears to be the 'better' choice at first glance. i guess everyone is into different things. dont get me wrong, im a massive c64 fan, but really from a games playing point of view - i dont think this is a bad thing? the term 'demo' must have changed greatly from what i remember to be a demo form old c64/amiga days. this might sound like a stupid question, but what can you actually 'do' with a demo?
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Blackspawn
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 11 |
Quote: ok thats cool - i was not aware that there was such a strong allegience to this particular site - i just assumed that people were looking from a nostalgic point of view. in that sense, lemon appears to be the 'better' choice at first glance. i guess everyone is into different things. dont get me wrong, im a massive c64 fan, but really from a games playing point of view - i dont think this is a bad thing? the term 'demo' must have changed greatly from what i remember to be a demo form old c64/amiga days. this might sound like a stupid question, but what can you actually 'do' with a demo?
You can watch it. You can enjoy it. You can hate it. You can go like "oh boy, that's so cooool! =8-O" or more like "waht teh heck si tah shit tehre on my screeen?". A demo can send shivers down your spine or bore you to death. A demo is entertainment. A demo is art. |
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Blackspawn
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 11 |
Oh and fadiga, yes, it WAS a stupid question! :p |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: You can watch it. You can enjoy it. You can hate it. You can go like "oh boy, that's so cooool! =8-O" or more like "waht teh heck si tah shit tehre on my screeen?". A demo can send shivers down your spine or bore you to death. A demo is entertainment. A demo is art.
well doesnt that still boil down to the fact that demos are for watching and games are for playing? i mean you could have a demo playing but all you are actually doing is sitting there watching it? with a game, you are actually involved. would this be a realistic comparision - you could watch a video of your favourite football team playing (quite good fun at first, but after a few times it gets boring becuase you know what will happen as you've seen it before) or you could actually go out and play football (you are invloved, part of the game and can influence what happens?
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Can we please have some sort of quiz when you want to join up to csdb please.. i mean what the fuck..
Something like TSM stands for.. or JCH wrote ... tune |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
something to seperate the sceners from the plebians |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
The scene is about competition and interaction as well, not just player against game AI which is normally just about learning patterns or responses but having to get some way into the mind of the demo's makers and even "duelling" between coders. For example, if Coder A comes up with an effect that Coder B looks at and says "how'd he do *that?!*" then Coder B will either theorise their own technique or delve through the code with a monitor to see what's actually happen and then attempt to top what Coder A has done.
Similarly, graphics artists can look at each others' work and wonder how they managed to do what they did with the finite resources available or they can even try to force those resources into doing something new and previously unseen. Musicians can try to out-do each other with the complexity of the tune, cleaner and better sampled sounds or previously undiscovered uses for obscure SID features.
That's why the games borrow so many ideas and techniques from demo code, although demo code isn't always suitable for the job a lot of routines like upper and lower borders, VSP or even linecrunching were "cutting edge" and did stuff that gamers had never seen either; look at Mayhem In Monsterland's VSP scroll or the Fred's Back series with their multi-directional fast bitmap scrolling, the former *might* be possible with traditional routines but not with that game logic and the latter is impossible without the tricks it uses.
i'm not saying that being into demos is better or worse than playing games because it's totally different and it's possible to be into both. It's just that appreciating demos takes a little more knowledge of the machine and time to get into as well since you need to know *why* doing fifteen ORA'd mega DYCPs is cool or how hard removing the sideborders can be if you want the sprites at different heights... |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Can we please have some sort of quiz when you want to join up to csdb please.. i mean what the fuck..
Something like TSM stands for.. or JCH wrote ... tune
Nah, i can barely remember what "T.M.R" stands for some mornings...! |
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JCB
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Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Then it's up to the individual to decide. I for one don't play many games, modern games imho mostly suck, I'll have a blast on MAME every now and again and sometimes spend a few hours on other emulators (c64,amiga etc) BUT I'll download the latest c64 demo and sit and watch it and enjoy it, then go back to old ones and watch/listen to those.
I think people who've been involved in demos are more likely too feel this way because we've been (or are still) part of the process, I've also been a games coder for the past ~15 years and knowing how both situations work (demos and games) is what's poisoned me to modern games. c64 demos are a group of guys (and girls sometimes) who code/draw/compose for fun, recognition and the enjoyment of others. Game coders get money for it and quite a lot of the time don't care what people think of what they're working on.
People who've never been part of the "scene" don't have the appretiation (or not as much) for what is involved and therefore look at demos from the point of view of "well, it kinda looks ok and it's doing some stuff on the screen, but I can't do anything. I've got this game though and I can blow away thousands of monsters or drive my car real fast"
The same goes for the "watch a video of your favourite football team" analogy. Football can be exciting at times, most of the time it's a bunch of blokes kicking a ball around and not much else for a LONG time ;) We've all played football and the fact that if you get bored of watching that video you can go outside and have a kick around is what gives you the link to watching professionals play and gives you an avenue into becoming part of it. Watch a c64 demo, get bored of it and if you can't code/draw/compose music, what are you going to do? Nothing. Games give you that "in" you become involved without having to have any technical skills.
(disclaimer, this probably makes no sense, just typing my thoughts on the subject as there seems to have been a lot of debate on the whole "scene" issue recently) :) |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: something to seperate the sceners from the plebians
good one - i bet you're popular on this forum |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Then it's up to the individual to decide. I for one don't play many games, modern games imho mostly suck, I'll have a blast on MAME every now and again and sometimes spend a few hours on other emulators (c64,amiga etc) BUT I'll download the latest c64 demo and sit and watch it and enjoy it, then go back to old ones and watch/listen to those.
I think people who've been involved in demos are more likely too feel this way because we've been (or are still) part of the process, I've also been a games coder for the past ~15 years and knowing how both situations work (demos and games) is what's poisoned me to modern games. c64 demos are a group of guys (and girls sometimes) who code/draw/compose for fun, recognition and the enjoyment of others. Game coders get money for it and quite a lot of the time don't care what people think of what they're working on.
People who've never been part of the "scene" don't have the appretiation (or not as much) for what is involved and therefore look at demos from the point of view of "well, it kinda looks ok and it's doing some stuff on the screen, but I can't do anything. I've got this game though and I can blow away thousands of monsters or drive my car real fast"
The same goes for the "watch a video of your favourite football team" analogy. Football can be exciting at times, most of the time it's a bunch of blokes kicking a ball around and not much else for a LONG time ;) We've all played football and the fact that if you get bored of watching that video you can go outside and have a kick around is what gives you the link to watching professionals play and gives you an avenue into becoming part of it. Watch a c64 demo, get bored of it and if you can't code/draw/compose music, what are you going to do? Nothing. Games give you that "in" you become involved without having to have any technical skills.
(disclaimer, this probably makes no sense, just typing my thoughts on the subject as there seems to have been a lot of debate on the whole "scene" issue recently) :)
thats a good post, and as im sure its quite obvious im not a coder or really into the demo scene. but i do have an open mind and all im saying is (unless you are actually making the demos) i cant imagine just sitting in a chair watching a screen is that entertaining - past about 10 minuted. with a game (a good one - there are plenty of sh*t ones) you become involved - ie you have control of something within the game. i view this like comparing an art gallery to an amusement arcade - both are fun, but one you are a passive viewer of pictures/art etc.. and the other you are actually taking part in something.
surely once you have seena demo a few times, thats it - its the same every time. with a game there is a random element and some SKILL involved. thats the difference. obviously it takes a great deal of skill to code either a game, or a demo. butafter its been made, a game still requires skill to play - a demo doesnt.
fair point? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Skill to watch no, but most action games merely require good hand-to-eye coordination and pattern learning rather than actual skill; since our kids have just had a long weekend and we finally got the cheap Dreamcast the Boss and i got connected to the telly, i spent a few hours rattling around the track on Magical Racing Tour and generally hammering the ten year old at it. i wouldn't say that i needed any skill to do that, any more than being able to finish IO on the C64 needs more than a fast trigger finger and forewarning of where the waves come from.
To appreciate demo coding you only need to know the machine, in the same way that you need to know the basic rules of football for a kickaround at the rec. Neither takes any skill; anybody can watch a demo, but understanding why it's so special (or not, as the case may be) takes a little back knowledge. Anybody can kick a ball too, but again they only have a base understanding of what really goes into being a pro footballer...
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
What a twisted look at the world! Who is passive here? Sceners or you. Active sceners are more-or-less artists who create. Nobody asks you to watch C64 art but PLEASE reconsider your soil legged opinions on reality. You already had plenty of chances to realise in this debate that your ideas are foolish so stop closing your eyes. Read again and *THINK*. Gaming is just a consumerism. All you do is just eating something which someone else have prepared for you. If you feel good like thatm no problem, but please don't try to persuade us that that consumerism is a sense of life. Wake up.
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Quote: good one - i bet you're popular on this forum
more popular than the last issue of rock n role thats for sure, go play a bayliss game and get the fuck outta here..
Cuddles and Clouds for you..
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: more popular than the last issue of rock n role thats for sure, go play a bayliss game and get the fuck outta here..
Cuddles and Clouds for you..
it helps if you can communicate in english - could you possibly provide some subtitles to your last post? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: it helps if you can communicate in english - could you possibly provide some subtitles to your last post?
That *was* English, it just contains some cultural references you won't get as someone not immersed in the scene... |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Skill to watch no, but most action games merely require good hand-to-eye coordination and pattern learning rather than actual skill; since our kids have just had a long weekend and we finally got the cheap Dreamcast the Boss and i got connected to the telly, i spent a few hours rattling around the track on Magical Racing Tour and generally hammering the ten year old at it. i wouldn't say that i needed any skill to do that, any more than being able to finish IO on the C64 needs more than a fast trigger finger and forewarning of where the waves come from.
To appreciate demo coding you only need to know the machine, in the same way that you need to know the basic rules of football for a kickaround at the rec. Neither takes any skill; anybody can watch a demo, but understanding why it's so special (or not, as the case may be) takes a little back knowledge. Anybody can kick a ball too, but again they only have a base understanding of what really goes into being a pro footballer...
...but surely watching a football match is great ONCE - but if you watch the same one again its a bit boring/predictable. im not talking about 'an outlook on life' or anything philosophical as CreaMD is suggesting, all i am doing is tlkaing about c64 usage in general. I think to say that playing a game does not take any skill is a bit unrealistic - the fact that you are able to get a Dreamcast and be very good at it straight away probably shows that you have a lot of game playing skill yourself, not that the game is too easy. Undoubtedly it is a great skill to be able to program any system, but i dont think you should look down your nose on people who enjoy playing games as a recreation. CreaMD thinks my opinions are foolish and should wake up - do you really think the idea of some recreational game playing/nostalgic game playing is strange?
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Quote: it helps if you can communicate in english - could you possibly provide some subtitles to your last post?
You must be American, why don't you try and find out what I am talking about.. then violate yourself with a sharp object |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
btw, Thanks Jason for that politically correct statement :) |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: You must be American, why don't you try and find out what I am talking about.. then violate yourself with a sharp object
i would do that to myself if i was an american trust me. dont get me wrong, i understood the words you used - just not in that strange order. I think your mum lets you use the computer too much
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
fadiga schrieb:
thats a good post, and as im sure its quite obvious im not a coder or really into the demo scene. but i do have an open mind and all im saying is (unless you are actually making the demos) i cant imagine just sitting in a chair watching a screen is that entertaining - past about 10 minuted. with a game (a good one - there are plenty of sh*t ones) you become involved - ie you have control of something within the game. i view this like comparing an art gallery to an amusement arcade - both are fun, but one you are a passive viewer of pictures/art etc.. and the other you are actually taking part in something.
/me says:
Like said before, the scene considers demos to be art.
You can surely imagine Art, which you can only watch 10 minutes, or even 1.5 hours.
But there is also Art, which is meant to be viewed only a short while.
If you are not into complex demos, you might try some "4k"-releases (shameless plugin: endless trip/k2, nova/k2)
fadiga wrote further:
surely once you have seena demo a few times, thats it - its the same every time. with a game there is a random element and some SKILL involved. thats the difference. obviously it takes a great deal of skill to code either a game, or a demo. butafter its been made, a game still requires skill to play - a demo doesnt.
/me writes:
well some emulamers have lost the skill to watch demos.
But to be honest: Almost every demo coder wants to make a cool Game!
One last word about football:
Its nicer to watch football live in the stadium, thats why the scene holds demo-competitions,with some places with thousends of visitors.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
No, he doesn't think that either if you read a little more closely. Most of us play games (and no, i'm not a particularly skilled games player, just very bloody minded) and we enjoy them for what they are too. But we also have what nearly amounts to a lifestyle choice (i've made a few of those in the past, they're easier to spot these days...) in the form of the scene.
The scene is about demos and their appreciation, it's also about games, either cracking the classics in jewel form or writing new ones, building the tools to work on all these projects, building the websites and web communities like this one to support what we're doing, idling on IRC, chatting on ICQ or other IM services, going to parties and getting paralytic with each other and mostly it's about communicating.
Yes, i know that sounds a little preachy, but it really is that intense for a lot of people. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Fadiga: What strikes me as foolish is not that you want to play c64 games (for whatever reason) - or even that you prefer playing games to watching demos. I don't see anything wrong with the fact that you prefer games to demos.
However...What I personally find foolish and arrogant is:
-Trying to judge this site without any knowledge of what it is all about.
-Telling people that they should stop using the CSDB and move to Lemon64.
-Suggesting that people should use a PC instead of a C64
-Telling people that demos are about being passive and thus not as interesting as games
-Jumping to quick and erroneous conclusions based on assumptions
-Posting in a demo related forum if you have no interest in demos
Sorry, but maybe you shouldn't be so surprised that some people attack you, in light of what you wrote? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Fadiga: do you listen to a cd more then once?
If yes, why is it so hard to understand that we can view demos multiple times?
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Fadiga: do you listen to a cd more then once?
If yes, why is it so hard to understand that we can view demos multiple times?
Considering how many times i've watched Spaceballs or The Matrix that's a very valid point. Scarily valid... in fact, i'm not going to admit to how vali... oops! |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Oh yeah, that's a top one bro,. straight onto the mum, all you are showing me by that line is that 1.you can't argue for shit since you stoop to such a comment so quickly and 2. your in geek denial, you probably only leave your house to get the mail.
Why not just stop now and look around, all the games with those things that allowed you to get umlimited lives and shit.. well those were created by "sceners" (try saying it.. "see-ners"). Deprotection, reducing file size etc etc all take a great deal of intelligence and skill, same as with demos, only different.
either way, your a fucking stooge, shut the fuck up like a good little lamer and maybe try to understand something a little bigger than ga(y)mes |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
I want to kill a lame myth going around in here, about that you can only like demos if you are making demos yourself!
When i was like 10-11 years old, games began being pretty boring. I noticed those fucking cool crack-intros before the games, and began loading games just to check those cool intros. I liked the gfx, mzx (which sounded much cooler than the "real" music of that time), and the often the text.
When i got my first demos i got "WOOOOW!!". It was nothing really special, but i must have watched them like 30-50 times (no shit!)
I got the idea that i wanted to code AFTER having watched those cool demos, NOT the other way around!!!!!!
P.S. To fatiga: those cool intros i'm talking about, was not made by those who made the games. They were made by the sceners who had cracked the game. (just to avoid misunderstanding) |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Fadiga: do you listen to a cd more then once?
If yes, why is it so hard to understand that we can view demos multiple times?
good point - but you can do other things at the same time as listening to one cant you? with a demo you are looking at a screen (most times) there is not much else you can do during that is there?
its more comparable to watching mtv rather than actually playing a musical instrument |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
It's better compared to watching a movie repeatedly than anything else; i've seen Spaceballs or the Wizard of Speed and Time about 20 times each but i'll still watch it from time to time, same with Deus Ex Machina or Insomnia v1.1 to pick a few at random. |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Oh yeah, that's a top one bro,. straight onto the mum, all you are showing me by that line is that 1.you can't argue for shit since you stoop to such a comment so quickly and 2. your in geek denial, you probably only leave your house to get the mail.
Why not just stop now and look around, all the games with those things that allowed you to get umlimited lives and shit.. well those were created by "sceners" (try saying it.. "see-ners"). Deprotection, reducing file size etc etc all take a great deal of intelligence and skill, same as with demos, only different.
either way, your a fucking stooge, shut the fuck up like a good little lamer and maybe try to understand something a little bigger than ga(y)mes
class - good one. i like your last paragraph particularly - remember what i was saying before about writing in english? if you are not american, then you are doing a good impersonation.
As far as leaving the house to get the mail - ive got a letterbox - people put things through it, so i dont need to leave really, but thanks for the concern all the same.
I think I'm going to cut and keep that last paragraph of yours, it great!
Its been an interesting discussion anyway - the most interesting thing is that everyone else who has replied to my original post has done so in a succinct, intelligent and to the point way, (not to mention 'understandable') so I guess you can be proud that you are a bit different in that sense. |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: It's better compared to watching a movie repeatedly than anything else; i've seen Spaceballs or the Wizard of Speed and Time about 20 times each but i'll still watch it from time to time, same with Deus Ex Machina or Insomnia v1.1 to pick a few at random.
thats a good point - i think everyone watches a favourite film over and over. But that is passive viewing - you are not actually involved really are you? |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Quote: good point - but you can do other things at the same time as listening to one cant you? with a demo you are looking at a screen (most times) there is not much else you can do during that is there?
its more comparable to watching mtv rather than actually playing a musical instrument
And noone watches MTV, or what are you saying? Well, many videos on MTV are crap, but when you watch some that you like you don't just sit and watch. Things are going through your mind, feelings pops up, you get to think about stuff (what ever they might be)
The same goes for every other piece of art. It could be a painting, a piece of music or a demo.
Thousands of people worldwide loves watching paintings (i must admight mostly i don't myself), and can look at them for hours. They don't just look at them because they just want to look at something, but because the paintings starts certain feelings and thoughts.
Mathematical/Computer art is no different. I really don't understand why you can't relate to that. Is there no kind of art that you think is cool?
You really don't have to be a painter to be able to enjoy a painting (get feelings etc), and you don't need to be a coder/musican/graphican to be able to enjoy a good demo, and enjoy it many times. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: thats a good point - i think everyone watches a favourite film over and over. But that is passive viewing - you are not actually involved really are you?
No, but at that level i don't want to be - it's an experience in the same way that a film or music video can be. But at the same time, i'm mentally picking the code apart whilst i watch although i know not everyone does that. |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: And noone watches MTV, or what are you saying? Well, many videos on MTV are crap, but when you watch some that you like you don't just sit and watch. Things are going through your mind, feelings pops up, you get to think about stuff (what ever they might be)
The same goes for every other piece of art. It could be a painting, a piece of music or a demo.
Thousands of people worldwide loves watching paintings (i must admight mostly i don't myself), and can look at them for hours. They don't just look at them because they just want to look at something, but because the paintings starts certain feelings and thoughts.
Mathematical/Computer art is no different. I really don't understand why you can't relate to that. Is there no kind of art that you think is cool?
You really don't have to be a painter to be able to enjoy a painting (get feelings etc), and you don't need to be a coder/musican/graphican to be able to enjoy a good demo, and enjoy it many times.
of course i can relate to it - it seems that some people on this site view games playing as some second class type of activity, and because i dont code or view demos i must be mad!!
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: ...but surely watching a football match is great ONCE - but if you watch the same one again its a bit boring/predictable. im not talking about 'an outlook on life' or anything philosophical as CreaMD is suggesting, all i am doing is tlkaing about c64 usage in general. I think to say that playing a game does not take any skill is a bit unrealistic - the fact that you are able to get a Dreamcast and be very good at it straight away probably shows that you have a lot of game playing skill yourself, not that the game is too easy. Undoubtedly it is a great skill to be able to program any system, but i dont think you should look down your nose on people who enjoy playing games as a recreation. CreaMD thinks my opinions are foolish and should wake up - do you really think the idea of some recreational game playing/nostalgic game playing is strange?
No my point of view describes lifestyle and life values.
I never (!) said playing games is strange. I said that playing games is ucomparable to making demos as making demos is creativity and playing games is consumerism.
That is not philosophy that is most pragmatic definition you can ever get.
Your posts clearly show that you are misunderstanding the concepts even when we they are explained from all possible angles and in plain english. And also, maybe you should learn to react properly and avoid posting your naive babbling here.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: of course i can relate to it - it seems that some people on this site view games playing as some second class type of activity, and because i dont code or view demos i must be mad!!
Ah finally you showed what is your problem.
So here is the answer. In my arrogant opinion: Playing games is not second class. It's a real fun and especially when you play with your friends. I like playing games too. However you are Don Quixotes who think how cool it is to fight in the discussions like this to prove that gamers are also people.
You are fighting with windmills in your head!!! Of course gamers are people! And many of them are great people. And we know that. Gaming is cool. Games are great! Some even better. Yeah! But when all this flaming debate ends you will still stay pathetic idiot trying to solve his inferiority complex on the wrong place.
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Ah finally you showed what is your problem.
So here is the answer. In my arrogant opinion: Playing games is not second class. It's a real fun and especially when you play with your friends. I like playing games too. However you are Don Quixotes who think how cool it is to fight in the discussions like this to prove that gamers are also people.
You are fighting with windmills in your head!!! Of course gamers are people! And many of them are great people. And we know that. Gaming is cool. Games are great! Some even better. Yeah! But when all this flaming debate ends you will still stay pathetic idiot trying to solve his inferiority complex on the wrong place.
thats right - ive got a real inferiority complex??!!
quote
That is not philosophy that is most pragmatic definition you can ever get. - and you think i'm arrogant!!
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Fadiga: Umm, did you read my previous post? Just curious. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Sure gaming is second class compared to actually being creative (=making a demo (or even a game)). No doubt about that, except if you're brainless.
But i guess playing a game is not second class compared to 'just' watching a demo (except that the second is cool, and the first is not - but that's just my oppinion)
However (like i said in my previous post) be sure to remember that watching a demo isn't just waste of time, as you thought when you first posted. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: thats right - ive got a real inferiority complex??!!
quote
That is not philosophy that is most pragmatic definition you can ever get. - and you think i'm arrogant!!
;-)))))))))))))
You you've got an inferiority complex and probably combined with lack of sense self-preservation.
And yeah I can't help myself but you are misinterpreting my own words so I tried to restate them so you could understand better, it seems you did. Thank you.
And no I don't think YOU are arrogant. Read again *sigh* I started my sentence with that "in my arrogant opinion" because someone might consider that opinion arrogant *sigh*
Ich habe fertig..
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: ;-)))))))))))))
You you've got an inferiority complex and probably combined with lack of sense self-preservation.
And yeah I can't help myself but you are misinterpreting my own words so I tried to restate them so you could understand better, it seems you did. Thank you.
And no I don't think YOU are arrogant. Read again *sigh* I started my sentence with that "in my arrogant opinion" because someone might consider that opinion arrogant *sigh*
Ich habe fertig..
have you been on some sort of training course recently where they focus on 'never use one word when thirty seven will do'? |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
one word?
well, let me try to find one for the whole thing here:
useless.
or better:
rubish.
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
the main problem may be that neither one nor 73 words seem to change either your behavior nor your point of view.
It all ends in: demos are boring, gamers are better then demo-watchers, gamers may be even better then demo-producers.
I hope this is just a small attempt of a flame-war. If it is not, i really don't get what's wrong with you.
*sigh*
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: have you been on some sort of training course recently where they focus on 'never use one word when thirty seven will do'?
Over the years I learned to be tactful, but you asked for it.
You lost!
Game over.
Try again.
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Creamd:
sorry mate, although you was very close, this were more then one word words.
This discussion was quite amusing in the beginning, but i really must say that it becomes boring.
-noone evere said that demo-watching has to be fun for everyone.
-noone ever said that gamers are generally stupid.
-noone ever said that watching demos is more productive then playing games (and vice versa ain't true too, or can you tell me the result of playing 2 hours turrican or watching deus ex for 13 times.)
-noone can disagree to the fact that producing demos or games for the c64 has more value then playing (old) ones (although it is right that the producers may be not that glad if there wouldn't be an audience).
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
hmm, among the first demos i saw where budbrain megademo, red sector megademo and giants megademo on amiga. i only liked budbrain megademo because of all the humour in it, i couldnt see anything interesting about the other demos that were more focused on code. so i can perfectly understand those who dont see anything interesting about demos.
even after getting used to demos i find most of them boring, and quite a few on the top ten makes me go yawn.
however there are some demos that i really enjoy watching, that gives me some sort of emotions.
and in my eyes hardly any demos qualify as art |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
*STOP* *FEEDING* *THE* *TROLL*
(no, that wasn't pointed at you, hollowman) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Yup. Most demos are too technical or too mathematical, but as with music. Some people like classic, some jazz and some techno. Still I hope that few more demos with potential to entertain general population will be released in future ;-) (maybe by guys who invented the scene? ;-) |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
agreed, but still there are some treasures "hidden" around.
Just think about some of triad or fairlight demos. The kind-of-slideshow-demos like digital magic and krestology (will i be killed for this? :) ).
Or demos that try to express some feeling or a special kind of view (triad /fairlight again, also last reactor..).
One problem may be that most demos do not really hold to this but soon fall back to the fx-thing.
It's not that i do not like those fx, but sometimes they do not fit and it makes me wonder if the demo wouldn't be "better" if it would have been taken out or just put into it in a more theme-orientated way.
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: hmm, among the first demos i saw where budbrain megademo, red sector megademo and giants megademo on amiga. i only liked budbrain megademo because of all the humour in it, i couldnt see anything interesting about the other demos that were more focused on code. so i can perfectly understand those who dont see anything interesting about demos.
even after getting used to demos i find most of them boring, and quite a few on the top ten makes me go yawn.
however there are some demos that i really enjoy watching, that gives me some sort of emotions.
and in my eyes hardly any demos qualify as art
i saw the budbrain demos on amiga etc.. and iadmit they are fun to look at and interesting for a bit - but to dedicate a whole 'scene' to it??!!
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Quote: i saw the budbrain demos on amiga etc.. and iadmit they are fun to look at and interesting for a bit - but to dedicate a whole 'scene' to it??!!
What's the point of wasting time watching demos?
What's the point of wasting time playing games?
What's the point of wasting time wondering why other people waste time on things you would never waste time on?
Damn, I should do a demo on this theme.
Oops, seems I already did.
Stop wondering, move on, you'll never understand. |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: What's the point of wasting time watching demos?
What's the point of wasting time playing games?
What's the point of wasting time wondering why other people waste time on things you would never waste time on?
Damn, I should do a demo on this theme.
Oops, seems I already did.
Stop wondering, move on, you'll never understand.
thats the whole point - one is 'watching' and one is 'playing'
perhaps you are right and i should 'move on'. im sure one day with a bit of good fortune and hard work ill find myself on that spiritual plane where you guys spend your time |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Quote: thats the whole point - one is 'watching' and one is 'playing'
perhaps you are right and i should 'move on'. im sure one day with a bit of good fortune and hard work ill find myself on that spiritual plane where you guys spend your time
Watching a demo gives me more pleasure than playing a game, and isn't that what it's all about? Or should I let other people tell me how to get a kick out of life?
And in the end, getting a highscore in HALO will get you as far in life as watching a demo. Both mean shit to the rest of the world.
Please be aware of that fact: gamers are considered losers too by a lot of people. Not by me (because I don't care) but there's a whole bunch of 'grown-ups' who just don't understand why somebody spends most of his free time behind a monitor, shooting at things moving on that monitor. |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Watching a demo gives me more pleasure than playing a game, and isn't that what it's all about? Or should I let other people tell me how to get a kick out of life?
And in the end, getting a highscore in HALO will get you as far in life as watching a demo. Both mean shit to the rest of the world.
Please be aware of that fact: gamers are considered losers too by a lot of people. Not by me (because I don't care) but there's a whole bunch of 'grown-ups' who just don't understand why somebody spends most of his free time behind a monitor, shooting at things moving on that monitor.
And in the end, getting a highscore in HALO will get you as far in life as watching a demo. Both mean shit to the rest of the world.
exactly - thats why people who play games to it for recreation and to relax - people who program demos seem to get on their high horse about it and it seems to be their entire life!
As far as a bunch of so called 'grown ups' goes - I can assure you there are millions more people who would consider people who program demos to be about as sad as you can get. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: And in the end, getting a highscore in HALO will get you as far in life as watching a demo. Both mean shit to the rest of the world.
exactly - thats why people who play games to it for recreation and to relax - people who program demos seem to get on their high horse about it and it seems to be their entire life!
As far as a bunch of so called 'grown ups' goes - I can assure you there are millions more people who would consider people who program demos to be about as sad as you can get.
Standing here trying to figure out where are those windmills you were fighting with few posts ago? Don't waste your time.. there are no windmills just few people stayed here, who are laughing at your vain attempts to get on a horse again. Don't you see that? You won't squeeze more of this topic. You had chance, but you lost. Calm down and get back to your favourite game, which must probably be "Alter Ego". Good luck.
having that a Cheschire cat grin on my face right now again... |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
-------------------
As far as a bunch of so called 'grown ups' goes - I can assure you there are millions more people who would consider people who program demos to be about as sad as you can get.
-------------------
It's called jealousy. People who can't do a thing deride that thing. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
What the fuck is it you don't get, fool?
Gamers just plays a game, but demo-coders actually make something - challenges their intellect. (if you say that gaming comes even close to that, you don't know shit about what you're talking about)
As for gaming vs. demo-viewing i can only say: demos are interesting, games are boring. You just play and play, no pleasure or anything. Demos are much bigger, higher than just games. Playing games gaves me pleasure when i was a child, but now time is just spended - nothing more. No creativity, just more of the same crap (this is the kind of things you write, just seen from the other side)
This is ofcause different from your perspective.. AND THAT'S OKAY! Maybe it takes a certain interest in computers. We think it's interesting to push the C64 to the limit. (and maybe even make it into something worth watching (as said b4: not all demos are cool))
Why do we have so little tolarance for gamers you ask? Because most of them act like you - very fucking closed minded. Does absolutely nothing that's hard themself (playing games is not hard), but still they feel they are better than coders at controlling a computer, and what they do are more important (and why do they think that? because they know shit about what they are talking about, and how a computer works) and gets up on their high horse and starts banging on about the frags they get in CS.
(as for the relax thing - this is just a hobby. Some periods i don't think about demos and C64 at all.
There are other ways to relax than playing games. (and why is it now so much more important to relax in front of a computer, compared to being very concentrated and unrelaxed? It's funnier...)
Also, i think a lot of those 'grown ups' will think it's a lot more childish to sit and play games on a computer when you're grownup yourself, than programming the computer.) |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
The same that goes for programming a computer ofcause also goes for making music, gfx... I also think most 'grown ups' think that has more 'quality', than just playing games.
(btw, it's also a way to relax to watch demos - you seem to confuse making demos, and watching demos) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Let me add another thing: coding demos has really helped me. Nowadays I make quite a lot of money as a software developer, and I doubt I would do that if I hadn't discovered demos all those years ago.
For some reason, I can't imagine wasting my youth playing games would have given me the same benefit. |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
another theory:
he is no troll, he is a psychology-student who is writting about "reactions caused by ignorance and stupidity and foolish repeating the same and the same without even care about the counter-reaction on the internet compared to real-life situations".
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
another theory
He's really Wallace the Bruce from lemon forums come to taunt some unsuspecting sceners :P |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: another theory
He's really Wallace the Bruce from lemon forums come to taunt some unsuspecting sceners :P
Yes I was condsidering that possibility too ;-). However, only admins of Lemon64 and CSDb will know for sure ;-) |
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icon
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 90 |
Try to explain whats make you a scener and why wathing/making demos are so awesome, is like trying to explain why you love is or why a painting moves you or a song. Eather you understand or dont. Its in you heart and soul.
/icon - Entered the scene 1985!! |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Quote: another theory
He's really Wallace the Bruce from lemon forums come to taunt some unsuspecting sceners :P
ofcourse he is.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: ofcourse he is.
No it's not him. It would be most probably you. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
No.. it's Smila! ;-) (well it's not that funny ...) |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
actually it's creamd's evil twin brother from another dimension |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
It was me all along! |
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smila
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 26 |
yeah it's me......erm hold on it's not, i was confused. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Itwasn'tmeyoucan'tproveathingididn'tdoit!! |
