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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
scene activity
more and more i get the feeling that the my world (the scene) has become smaller and smaller. after a chat with the overkiller it was clear to me that the dutch scene isn't alive anymore and the italian scene either.
but what about the polish scene, the slovak scene and the german scene? how did the c64 survive through all the modern thinkings and technology?
sure as hell i bet the german scene survived because the pc-sceners adopted the c64 on their parties like mekka+symposium.....
drake |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Well, I think scene stays here in Germany, because more and more wanted to stay with C64 and suppport with services like hardware/software development, magazines, and coding, so releases, etc.
But I think the future is the INTERNATIONAL C64 scene!
Don't you think so?!
All the best!
Bye!
Joerg |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
so, now is GERMANY the middle of the c64 scene world?
your home? ;-) nafcom?
i think its only because germany is so big!
but as i said ages ago: not every activity means good activity. i feffer to some crackers like didi and goat from laxity f.e. |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2581 |
No, please, not another discussion of that kind! ;-)
IMHO the reasons there are a lot of sceners on C64 left on Germany are simple:
First, I agree with Drake, because Germany is quite big; and through the reunion in ´90 it became even bigger, and quite some sceners joined in from eastern Germany.
And the second thing: Germany has always been quite wealthy (just a fact, no embarrasment meant to anyone!), so the C64 and computers in general sold and sell well in Germany, so lots of people spend their time with them. And its also still easy today to get a C64 for a cheap price.
Best wishes,
Bugjam
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Quote: more and more i get the feeling that the my world (the scene) has become smaller and smaller. after a chat with the overkiller it was clear to me that the dutch scene isn't alive anymore and the italian scene either.
but what about the polish scene, the slovak scene and the german scene? how did the c64 survive through all the modern thinkings and technology?
sure as hell i bet the german scene survived because the pc-sceners adopted the c64 on their parties like mekka+symposium.....
drake
Why isn't the Dutch scene alive anymore?
You have Xenon, Scs+Trc, Spiders-crew, Flashback, Shrine, ... In comparison to the German scene, it is not much but it is still a piece of the scene which means something.
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
Slash Design, Focus, and if you consider Role a bit dutch as well, we're still active here ;)
If you really look at what happened last 3 years in the Netherlands, not much changed in the activity amount. It's real low, but there's still some pulse |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Czech scene has few active people, but slovak scene has currently three more-or-less active people Orcan, TopSecret and me ;-). So "we" aren't that big as someone might think. ;-) Maybe it's because you saw so many faces on Forever, but truth is that most of them came from abroad. Also, half of them were from other scenes (Speccy, Atari). |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
To comment on the "scene activity"-topic;
Here in Sweden, we actually have had a big rise of the scene ever since we started with the smaller, scenecentered parties - LCP and Floppy. The scene today compared with what it was in 1999 is both a) a hell of a lot larger than it was back then and 2) far more active. Just check out the amount of releases on LCP and FLP during the last two years. So believe me, the local scenes can actually wake to life once again - don't despair! |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
The U.K. scene is Merman, Richard Bayliss and Allan Bairstow [evil grin, runs for cover =-] |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: The U.K. scene is Merman, Richard Bayliss and Allan Bairstow [evil grin, runs for cover =-]
Well, Richard is as active as all the other scenes together. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 896 |
And Focus (from what I've heard) and Xenon will show some signs of life soon.. |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
hehe, i know sander/focus as i've seen him a few months ago. the first time i saw him was on the x'98 when he wears some spice-girls shoes. the guy's a good painter....
shake, everytime i forget your name (big sorry) i know you're from groningen....
the whole scene seems to have been declined but why the hell is the scene growing in some countries? is the reason that the few ppl are active? or that they have a lot of meetings?
i don't know. but i know that anubis and role just have the 'primary star party 'in holland to give the dutch scene a good reason tho show some activity |
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Oxidy
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 80 |
A comment on Twoflowers post;
I've been quite inactive recent years as most people know, but after visiting Floppy this year with the rest of the Wrath crew I got some sort of scene rush. 50% nostalgia, and 50% scene spirit. I had more fun on Floppy than I've had in many years, meeting old friends, partying and of course watching some new releases on the big screen, such as the efforts of Puterman, Hollowman and HCL. Eventhough other things could have ignited my interest for the c64 again - Floppy is the main reason for my return.
Without Parties and Meetings (and of course the people visiting), the scene would be extremely dull...
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
uhm .. i don't think there's such a thing as a national scene. (k, that shall not lead to a discussion like the one started by sad, but well .. =) ><
i've never been part of the german scene, simply because i'm not involved in any pure german group. same for my activities on the amiga and pc, i've been part of the international scene (read: member of groups with people from everywhere in the world) for like 80% of my time in the scene. you might more or less wonder where the people went to, or why they quit doing things on the c64 at all .. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
Polish scene (except the one and only Fenek/Arise :>) seems rather dead (or is it only sleeping?... hope so). There are some talented fresh faces (like coder Logan, graphician Risk0, musicians Jammer and Sidder), but after they had released anything promising, they immediately joined old Polish groups (like Samar Productions) and as their groups are inactive, they stay inactive as well. Or maybe I am completely wrong and they will liven things up a bit, causing all veterans to move again?
Either way, we can't even dream of such vital and productive scene like Sweden (Floppy 2003 demo and graphic compos left me stunned...) and Germany have. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Shouldn't we all see this C64 scene as an international one?!
I find it rather useless to divide into countries.
I think, we are all "one whole" (rather than some people would say "one hole".).
I think positive. I think, together, we will keep alive the C64 scene forever! :)
Joerg |
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
stop preaching Joerg, there is nothing wrong with telling what the scene activity is in your country. |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: stop preaching Joerg, there is nothing wrong with telling what the scene activity is in your country.
pardon?! It was only well, my point of view. Okay, nobody wants to hear, so good bye CSdB forum.
First "kind words" from Steppe, then this.
Good bye!
Joerg |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Everytime i read threads like this one the great word called "retard scene" falls into my mind. Thank you, Puterman and Hollowman, for having found a name for that dread disease. |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
at least that one is growing (:
...sind wir nicht alle ein bischen retard scene? |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Krill, thanks, but I didn't have anything to do with the invention of that term. I just picked it up because it was such a great and descriptive expression. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
I for one find it to be an arrogant, sickening, elitist expression. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: pardon?! It was only well, my point of view. Okay, nobody wants to hear, so good bye CSdB forum.
First "kind words" from Steppe, then this.
Good bye!
Joerg
Nafcom, overreacting won't help you to gain any respect.
Krill. I think we shouldn't generalize. We should always asses sceners individually. Therefore I suggest to put an "r" after the word "scene" everytime it's possible. ;-)
roman
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
@Nafcom:
There's nothing wrong in seeing oneself as part of a national scene. You can't deny the existence of national scenes even in the year 2003. Some people feel pride in it, some just don't care.
So why are you trying to convince us that we're all one happy flower-power-peace-loving circle of friends?
As a consequence of this, wouldn't we have to stop being part of scene groups as well? What's the point of it in a global community? ;-) |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
some people use words to act like 'elitish'people like puterman does. its so....how should we call it? hmmm....pathetic?
nafcom, i don't think you have to preach as your not a holy scener. i, for myself remind those cool parties i have been at and the cool people i met. i know there are still parties and so i still visit them! ;-)
as long as there are atleast 2 sceners still rockin' i'll try to be one of them ;-) |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
A term "retard scene" is disgusting and an abomination. However, you can never tell if you fall under this category in other people's eyes or not. Watch out. If you care, that is. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Personally, i just see myself as lame so who cares what other people think of me. =-) |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
So, Drake, Smalltown Boy, Vanja, and all you other people who don't like the term "retard scene", could you please propose a new term that describes people who release crap, are proud of it, have no intention to ever improve, and constantly support each other's crap?
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: some people use words to act like 'elitish'people like puterman does. its so....how should we call it? hmmm....pathetic?
nafcom, i don't think you have to preach as your not a holy scener. i, for myself remind those cool parties i have been at and the cool people i met. i know there are still parties and so i still visit them! ;-)
as long as there are atleast 2 sceners still rockin' i'll try to be one of them ;-)
Hey, I don't preach, I just say what I think! What's wrong with that?! I am really sick of that "retard this and that scene". Retard are the people who say the C64 scene is nowadays "retard".
If everybody really thinks (like you, Shake, Steppe), I only preach here, I see no need in replying to forum messages here, in some future.
Smalltowm Boy and Vanja "preach" the same and well, it may sound strange, but I fully agree with them.
It's not a matter of respecting me (as a quote of CreamD) but the chance to handle controverse opinions.
If everybody would follow here every message about this topic, one will see I really agree with Vanja and Smalltown Boy. For me, these are the people who understood the meaning of the C64 scene nowadways.
I know the scene changed even a lot sicne I joined it 1998.
And hope Steppe, you are happy that I am not "too friendly" now and even angry and fed up now with all this shit here.
Even Drake, you said I just get more to the point here and more angry and not too much mercy.
So, here is my message to all those with No Mercy (yeah! Drake, Steppe, you have been waiting for this! :)
@Vanja, Smalltown Boy:
Please don't give up to state your point of view to which I agree to 110%! Please don't give up! Thank You! :)
@Puterman:
Well, I think it's not only shit released in other eyes'
as nobody else does so much complain like you, maybe you should think a bit about what you really say here.
I know you from M&S 2001 and you have been very friendly speaking to me and others.
Don't waste friendly moments away!
@Drake, Shake, Steppe:
You never have to read my lines here again! That's a word!
@CreamD:
I think I have sometimes same problem like you: Get easily hurt.
I think anyway that "preach" thing was a bit without respect.
I hope those 3 will tell me personally on phone, ICQ, email or PM that they think so before posting here any things personally against me to the public.
I hope everybody is able to agree with the big lines here.
And once again my special thanks to Vanja and Smalltownboy and to TMR for fighting for the "German Thing".
You are all great! :)
And now, let me leave this disgusting thing forever. And if you have anything to tell me, you know my Email, ICQ, and you even have my phone number here and I am even at home for a while now and then! :)
Oh, and one thing: I won't come here online just to check my PMs, so really better you use my email address or ICQ or phone!!!!!!!!
All the best and now you can preach without me forever! Cheer up, yeah!!!
Joerg |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
NAfcom, I mean't that sentence about not visiting forum. I don't get easily hurt, but I get easily upset.
Puterman: how about decaying scene? When we thing about scene and it's age in the terms of human life, the scene is now in retirement age therefore also "demented" or "senile" are better words than retard ;-) Still I would rather not generalise the scene into groups but assess everyone idividually.
I'm sure majority of people who like other's crap aren't actually retarded. Worse are the people who don't like crap but don't say it out loud or instead of crap judging judge the author of crap. There are ways to judge others crap without actually insulting the other and that's what people who hate crap should learn. Respect the others and be sincere about their crap, that's important! ;-)
Roman |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Quote: So, Drake, Smalltown Boy, Vanja, and all you other people who don't like the term "retard scene", could you please propose a new term that describes people who release crap, are proud of it, have no intention to ever improve, and constantly support each other's crap?
I like the term "retard scene", because it reminds me of retro.
Its a nice aggressive term, like emulamer.
Have Fun & see ya in Uetersen(Germany!),
Zed Yago
--
Arguing on the internet is like participating in the Special Olympics:
even if you win, you're still a retard
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Yes, people, keep on ragging (no other better word can be used in this forum)!!! Newcomers will be scared and stay away. Really nice attitude in the scene... I told myself not to give any reactions in this forum here anymore, but I thought : let's give a final last word to all these aggressive scene-killer (yes, just like in 1992, it will make the scene smaller again and if we don't watch out, the scene will die/ stop this attitude!).
I keep friends with everybody who likes to be friends. For me the scene was and still is a group of friends like in any hobby. There is competition, but after alll everybody stays friends. That has to be the only attitude in every hobby, also in the scene.
Nowadays it has come so far that I have to avoid people and places on the internet (just like I did for a few years since 1992) because of a so-called elitisch attitude (you're not good in his eyes, so get out of here). I don't like this attitude, and if this was the meaning of this database to be meant for people with such an attitude; then this database is the wrong thing for me.
When people get me informed about "dissapearing of this aggressive attitude", then I will maybe come back to support (as the scene needs support, no wars and so). But if the attitude stays, then I search other ways to keep contact with sceners who like to be friends.
A SHAME ON MANY REACTIONS IN THIS FORUM, IT MAKES THIS DATABASE USELESS...
Have a good ragging time. BYE.
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Being lame is one thing, each of us *started* out lame when we first coded our first slightly flickery rasterbar part, painted our first three colour logo that caused blindness in children or composed our first tune that deafened next doors dog, but the important bit is that we got better through practise. The term "retard scene" (one i don't find particularly comfortable, although i sort of see where it came from) is used to refer to people who don't or more importantly *won't* go through that learning cycle.
Saying "it's just a hobby" (not referring to anyone specifically here, it's been said a few times) doesn't hold water; if someone takes up scuba diving as a hobby they tend to expand their abilities as they practice it, record collectors build on their knowledge as the add to their collections, fishermen gain a vast amounts of knowledge about lures and prime locations. It's a natural progression, if nobody in the scene new or old is willing to make *some* progress either on a general or personal scale, is there any point? We may as well forget about the C64 side of things and just socialise.
i do prefer the term "lamer" myself, but that's probably because i'm quite old and set in my ways but it gets the point across. i don't consider myself to be some sort of elite, i'd like to think i'm fairly good at what i do, that i have the occasional burst of something passing for genius which i offset against the more regular bursts of lameness. i'll admit that i recycle routines to get small releases but there's always *something* in those demos that i've never tried before that made it worth my while doing if nothing else. And i'll help people if "life" doesn't get in the way.
On another note, one thing that annoys me is the "I'm taking my ball and going home" approach of ragging and then storming off. It's probably just as bad if not *worse* than calling someone names because it says that you feel superior enough to not even *bother* hanging around to hear people's responses! Teenagers argue like that (see "Kevin And Perry Go Large" for further reference) and i thought we were all a bit more mature than that... |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Good point TMR, exactly what I thought to myself. Anyway, I just wanted to point out again, that this Kindergarden attitude bugged me the most. There's nobody "fighting for something" or nothing generously to "forgive"... There are some arguments here now and then, and still I think that we solved most of them pretty peacefully. And if somebody's playing with matches, he's supposed to stand the flames.
Sorry, but am I the only one in here that _doesn't_ feel that aggressiveness here that Nafcom and Commander were talking about? It's just people (and grown-ups at that) talking about various issues. Nafcom and Commander, you should go to comp.sys.cbm to see what "flaming" means! ;-)
If you're participating in this forum, you're expected to deal with open criticism like grown-ups. And sometimes that criticism is justified, I might add. Not that I like the term retard scene too much, it's really politically uncorrect, at least with respect to real "retards" or mentally handicapped persons, how they are nowadys probably referred to. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
In my opinion, what is killing the scene is lack of communication and feedback. Inability and unwilligness of people to say something. Indifference is what is killing the scene! CSDB is as good as it's users are, if you will leave CMR, who will be here to guard your ideals?
Pople talking about scene, demos, releases (that also means criticism) = scene lives. |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Just some small cents,
the good thing that made the scene special was called friendship. You had a competitive scene but based on friendly competition.
there has always been fighting and groupwars or personal wars but that could not spoil anything as you just laughed and that was it.. the ragging in the past was funnier than nowadays, just imagine those nice "we love olav" stuff etc.
you can easily rag someone down now as everybody can paste in one of those big forums. back in the past you had to have some kind of status to reach that big audience :-D
Guess why there are still so many people wasting their time on this "retard" machine ?
maybe because there is still friendship in our beloved hearts (<flame>the scene has even places for meanis and boasters like deadbeat, cupid or amj are accepted</flame> . Other scene "pseudo-scenes" like pc/console whatever are having those nowadys aggressive - "I am the best - fuck the rest" attitude, we do not want that though...
you always had and have the right to speak whatever you want but always keep in mind that it could hit you harder than you wanted it ;-D
a retard opinion from a retard German and retart lamer (hey t.m.r., you are not alone anymore, I am very lame, too)
all get outta my face I dont like you anyways
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
sorry for the huge amount of typos and nonsense sentenses, I just shouldn't abuse cocaine before writing, sorry |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I think some people confuse 'retard scene' with the whole c64 scene .. although to non-c64 sceners we might be just that ..
Me, I don't care, I've left the scene years ago. Much easier that way :)
And Steppe, no, you're not alone, I do think some people here over-react.
Slator, don't abuse cocaine, share it. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
Zed Yago:
"I like the term "retard scene", because it reminds me of retro. Its a nice aggressive term, like emulamer."
"Emulamer" is a nice term indeed, especially when it is used by people like Murdock, people who cannot prove their supremacy over more skilled sceners otherwise. You've just disappointed me, Zed Yago. I thought that talented people understand that it does not matter which tool (or environment) do you use, but what the effect is. Obviously I was wrong.
Puterman:
"could you please propose a new term that describes people who release crap, are proud of it, have no intention to ever improve, and constantly support each other's crap?"
Crap is a subjective definition. Are you 100% sure your stuff isn't considered crap by other sceners, _not necessarily_ belonging to the so-called retard scene?
CreaMD:
"People talking about scene, demos, releases (that also means criticism) = scene lives."
No. People releasing stuff = scene lives. Think, instead of discussing here, you could have done a tune for Vision 2003. :)
Feedback is welcome, sure, but only if there exists new stuff to comment upon.
Slator:
"sorry for the huge amount of typos and nonsense sentenses, I just shouldn't abuse cocaine before writing, sorry"
Now that's what should meet some criticism. Slator, are you still in primary school, do you really think it is of any interest for anyone? Even if you're joking (and I do hope you are), it's a joke that would only make some white, suburban, teenage shithead laugh. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Yes, Slator, you shouldn't do coke! What devilish substance that is! Now please send whatever coke you have left to me, and i will forgive you again. :) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Well i'm posting here in the gaps between coding an entry for Vision, although i'm not sure it's going to get finished in time 'cos i may have come up with a base idea that's a little too involved to code before the end of Thursday (i won't have time on Friday!) S'nothing complex, just fun...
i'll put my hand up now as someone who doesn't take well to criticism (i sulk! =-) but i do understand why it's needed and indeed important because nothing changes without it. Without change, the scene grinds to a halt and you only have to look at the CPC scene where most people just do rasterbar demos for proof, do we want to be like that...?
As for coke, i've never tried sniffing it 'cos i'm worried about the bubbles going up my nose - does it even work with diet...? =-) |
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zdzisek
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 33 |
> "Emulamer" is a nice term indeed, especially when it is used by people like Murdock, people who cannot prove their supremacy over more skilled sceners otherwise. <
Isn't /VARIOUS/G-L/H_M_Murdock/ directory in HVSC a sufficient proof of Murdock's supremacy? ;-) |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
cant remember if it was me or someone else who started
to use the expression 'retard scene', perhaps it popped
up in a few places at about the same time when several
people felt that things had gone way to far.
we need to have a name for the retarded and inbred
scene where backscratching and degeneration is
the norm. and for the sensitive: retard doesnt
necessarily have to refer to mentally retarded, a rolling ball that slows down is retarding without offending anyone.
unlike the offensive releases which deny much of the progress that is still going on in this scene
now back to what started this thread..
declaring the scene in a certain country to be dead
is probably not a very good way to encourage people,
and if i was an active scener in a 'dead' country
i would be rather pissed off to hear that the activity
i put in doesnt count.
but then the initial post wasnt very accurate anyway,
the polish scene doesnt live up to the reputation
some are trying to give it. yes, the very delayed
biba2 was great but apart from that i havent seen much from .pl in the last few years. i heard about some c64 news site in slovakia, and i know that the germans like to publish magazines in their own language and getting beaten by foreign demos at mekka and breakpoint. no, i am not trying to upset anyone, what i mean is that most countries are pretty much at the same level, and theres no need to ask why country A has better scene than country B, when one active coder can make so much difference.
and as usual puterman is accused for elitism when he's actually just being honest. if you think his or mine or whoevers c64 productions are crap just say so. but as usual just keeping quiet, or whining and then running off is a more popular choice. if you feel pointed out as being lame, why not stay and defend yourself. atleast i would if its about products that i take pride in having done |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Smalltown boy yeah you are right, but you know that I never meant to preach for "talkers" only. I once wrote a poem about that. It was called Creativity and Indifference ;-). |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Hollowman you forgot about well-known multiplattform 8bit party in slovakia called Forever ;-)
...and I like to read your opinions, (most of the time) probably because they are so fresh and sincere. |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
wooohoooo. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
> Yes, Slator, you shouldn't do coke!
> What devilish substance that is!
Slator, no, please, do coke and everything else one could think about. I just beg you, don't act like a rebelious schoolboy who just discovered that it's actually possible to get high and impress friends with speaking of it. In other words: this is not an IRC channel, full stop. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: wooohoooo.
You too. ;-) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Michal, what's up with you? :-)
Don't be so serious, this coke thingy was a joke. I figure you're concerned that innocent eyes of the uninitiated might see the public "praise" of hard drugs, but kids of that age usually hang out on the pcgames.com forum. ;-)
Besides, this is a closed board, only registered users can view it. |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
what a discussion! i opened this discussion to know whats up in the scene today and sometimes its a rough time, but never a waste of time!
i know there are some ppl here who takes this so serious that they left the board. i cant help it. just like one already said (t.m.r.) to commander: who will stand for your ideals if you leave?
i never heard the word 'retard' in this scene before and i think it's a quit lame word to use. it really hurts ppl that they got kicked out in such a negative way! somebody can be a lamer and everybody puts jokes on him for some time, but even scorpe is back in the scene ;-)
do we have to kill eachother? do we have to be so serious? do we have to use the word 'retard' ?
do we have to use coke? or even beter: colombiana.
and there is a diet for it......there is more than only sniffing. ;-) |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Quote: You too. ;-)
cool. |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
haha, that thing here somehow goes outta bounds.
for sure I am using cocain. how can one be so stupid and tell if he actually does ? I am not curt cocain eh cobain.
If you sense truth in every single word smalltown boy, then I hope your handle doesn't mean that you like jimmy summervill ? :-D
Your jedi tricks don't work on me...
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
oh, smalltown "BOY", I am still in primate school, sorry (now for the 25th time, hurray for boobies, that makes a quarter of a hundred (thanks fc3)) |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
retardscene iz bezt!
hollowman iz bettahj dan bezt
puterman is beztezt dan bettah
zlatah is dwug addikt n cucain zomby.. numbah vun!!!!
die die die die die die die die die yeehah!
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Just to prove my superior state of being I found some slogan:
C64 just got 8 bits so why wasting 1 on hatred ?
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
> Michal, what's up with you? :-)
> Don't be so serious, this coke
> thingy was a joke
I suspected it to be a joke (after all, Slator sounds too young to afford coke :D ), but it was a joke in extremely bad taste, admit it.
Notice one thing: nobody reacted in any way to my post about current condition of Polish scene, but point out to one of the users that his reference to dope was unnecessary - and you're clocked, kept to the ground and gangbanged in the ass. Food for thought about what C64 scene activity is really like *provocation* |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
dear mr. smalltownboy,
I just wrote that drug stuff in order to find some "funny" excuse for my lame typos and my non-spellchecking on my post.
If you think I am too young to know anything of that thing called life then I just can assure you that I am actually old enough to know what I am speaking about. At least I am older than you are.
Nobody put you down or whatever you felt. Some people just have some other sense of humor.
I am sorry to have bothered those that down share my lame sarcasm it was not my main intention.
mabye some people should not weigh every word in gold.
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
At last some serious words from you, Slator. Much appreciated. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
So can we now please continue holding our hand in a circle and singing "Hare krishna, hare rama!"? :-D
I love you all so much! |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Csdb ate my original post..
When i said i would no longer post on c64.sk the retardscene all gathered around and had a big circle-jerk in happiness because their smurf like lives would no longer be troubled by the evil fade "gargamel"
The more things change, the more they stay the same.. |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 130 |
@oxidy
I agree that without parties the scene would have been extremely dull. In sweden there is some great parties as like lcp and floppy.
But there is not that many foreigners at those parties, even though those parties are very good. The reason for this is ofcoz the long travel distance. But i think the main reason is the lame alcohol-policy in sweden.
* That you cant buy alcoholm in a normal food store like lidl or ica.
* Systembolaget which sells alcohol is usually only opne from 9.00 to 15.00 on saturdays and closed on sundays.
* alcohol is expensive in sweden.
That might be the main reason for not many foreigner visitors here.
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Oxidy
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 80 |
Dwangi:
Perhaps the Swedish alcohol policy could be a factor, but it's hardly the main reason. The larger the distance, the more money is needed. The money issue and the trouble arranging the journey is in my view what keeps people from visiting parties far away. Not if they can buy beer in the local grocery store. (Or perhaps I'm wrong. Different sceners have different preferences.) If we flip things around I don't think any Swedish scener would visit Breakpoint just because they can buy alcohol a saturday at eight PM. Anyway, if I'm not mistaken there are some german sceners planning to visit LCP which is great! See you there!
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Damn, who told you...?! ;-) |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Smalltown Boy wrote:
"Emulamer" is a nice term indeed, especially when it is used by people like Murdock, people who cannot prove their supremacy over more skilled sceners otherwise. You've just disappointed me, Zed Yago. I thought that talented people understand that it does not matter which tool (or environment) do you use, but what the effect is. Obviously I was wrong.
Maybe you do not understand emulamer as I do.
I also use PCs and Emulaters for writing my stuff, but I NEVER watch the final effort only on an Emulator.
There are People who try to watch fresh demos with an Emulator, instead the real thing, and this looks ugly most of the Time. (Not to mention the Sound)
However, this emulamer debate must be archived somewhere on csdb.
The Folks who have been pissed off by the retard term:
We are just making fun about ourselves.
There is truth, that the whole C64 scene is retard, thats why this term hurts.
The most retarded Things I ve seen were some Amiga-"Demos" which just consisted of a slideshow.
By insulting the "retards", maybe they improve.
If not it is also OK, we are there to create some new stuff, have fun, and talk to each other.
BTW, I would not even call Basicdemos retarded, if they have some funny Ideas included.
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
and i quote..
The Folks who have been pissed off by the retard term:
We are just making fun about ourselves.
There is truth, that the whole C64 scene is retard, thats why this term hurts.
---
says you hippie, smoke your banana peels elsewhere, if the c64 scene is retarded then it is because of the retards. The sooner we relocate these people to america, everything shall be playboy magazines and sideborder glenz vectors in realtime. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
ah yes, ofcourse to emulate or not to emulate and schoolboy-slators cokehabit is what this discussion is supposed to be about.
c64 isnt retarded by default, you can do whatever
you want on this machine, but for some reason
people prefer to follow in other peoples footsteps.
only thing that confuses me is why spain with its
easily available alcohol in stores doesnt have loads
of great c64 parties filled with foreigners
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Guess that must be a climatic thing: People in Spain rather spend the day outside than sitting in front of the monitor. Maybe that's also the reason for the success of the C64 in Skandinavia/D/NL/GB...
It just leaves the question open why Greece is so Amstrad CPC dominated. %) |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
maybe we just close this shitty thread or rename it into flame and lame or something.
that cheap liquor thing is funny as hell...
a totally new view on the scene itself.
no booze no scene .-D
no place for "ex" alcoholics then...
anyways sorry for bothering as said like 108324972314823462378 times before, it's running outta bounds.
@hollowman: never underestimate the power of drugs and how a simple sentense can change you whole life.
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
> ah yes, ofcourse to emulate or not to emulate and
> schoolboy-slators cokehabit is what this discussion is
> supposed to be about.
Of course not. Bring it back on track by giving us a small lecture: "how to activate your national scene", as proposed by Hollowman, Swedish (like I said, Sweden is leading in both quality and quantity of C64 stuff released) elite member. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
What is it people hope to achieve by using the term "retard-scene"? Do you really think using words like that will make people improve their skills? Is that why you are so desperate to divide the scene into retards and non-retards? Or are you using the term just to make yourself feel better?
If you want people to improve their skills, do you really think throwing insults at them will help? I don't think so. Throwing insults at people is what you do if you want them to quit. You think a kid will be a great artist if he or she is constantly told that their drawings suck? The most likely scenario is that they will give up drawing.
How about some encouragement, some constructive criticism, lending a helping hand, giving out source code examples, writing an article on how to make better sounds in music program X, letting people share your pixeling-secrets?
Instead of getting on your high horse and calling others retards.
And yes Puterman, I know you have written that article about c64 demos (I am always giving out the url to people who want to start coding c64 demos), but that only makes me more disappointed to see you of all people using the term "retard scene". |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Well, I find no conflict in Puterman speaking as he does and yet having written that article. I speak mainly for myself now, but I believe not until someone has spent quite an effort to write lengthy tutorial(s) and then see that it has largely gone to waste will the cynicism be fully developed. :)
Because once you do that kind of effort, you will see more clearly that on one extreme, there are people who are willing to learn, expend hard work, and find their own way pretty much without any tutorials, and on the other end are those who'd like everything spoonfed.
Of course that leaves a middle ground of people who might get a crucial "push" from some article, but at this time, I believe they are not many..
As for the "retard" term, it's a bit strong, yes, and I'd only use it myself because of someone's behaviour not productions, when it's clear that the person(s) in question are pretty much beyond hope. |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
@Cadaver: You must admit that your tutorials are on a very high level that appears to be beyond the comprehension of the average I-did-a-small-program-in-basic-10-years-ago-now-please-tell-me-how-to-do-a-game- in-assembler dude.
Then again, there are many tutorials available that are about the very first steps in Asm (about things like "what means LDA?"). I believe that many people never get farther than that stage because of:
- Lack of motivation (It takes a long time until you have created something "impressive" that reinforces you to carry on)
- Lack of ability (... not lack of skill, which could be improved. People have their limits ;) - Not everyone is a genius)
- Lack of tutorials about the moderately advanced levels... Although there are some of them available, and then it comes back to lack of motivation and ability. You are right, it is impossible to present everything in the "ready-to-serve" way - real asm porgramming/coding always involves some pioneering work. If people don't like to do that work, pues nada.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
To me, retard scene describes the persons putting out garbage who are not willing to improve, or worse: who can do much better but think that basic demos and ugly pictures are funny and should be entered in competitions. I see no use for people like that in any scene to be honest.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
MorGor: Yes, I'm aware that they're highlevel and not useful but to a very small niche. I'm not bitter or anything, I just have greater understanding now :) Most cynicism comes anyway not from the tutorials but from the realization that people would want extensive SID instrument libraries (or to have the means to rip them from any PSID-file) instead of learning to do their own :)
Well, I guess part of the problem is, that once someone has got down the basics of ASM and handling the chips, there are actually infinite possibilities where to go next, but tutorials can only present a view limited by their author..
For example, what would the next advanced step be from Puterman's document? I guess it'd have to be describing the effects and optimization in even more detail. But that would either have to be limited to a very few effects or be an unbelievable amount of work. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
> Most cynicism comes anyway not from the tutorials but
> from the realization that people would want extensive SID
> instrument libraries (or to have the means to rip them
> from any PSID-file) instead of learning to do their own
Amount of GT tunes with snare taken from "Metal Warrior" example IS frightening, but don't forget that they were mostly done by beginners. Show me a musician who did not rip sounds when composing his first tune(s).
Just wait for those people to progress and you might be pleasantly surprised.
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
cadaver: the next step would be... unnecessary. All the info you need is already there (and then there's a shitload of other articles that'll teach you everything from scrollers to SHIFLI). The point is that you don't need tutorials: you have to do a lot of work on your own. However, if you don't want to learn, that's a problem, and no tutorial will ever solve that problem.
_You_ already know that, but there are others who might not be as enlightened.
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
Cadaver: "Well, I guess part of the problem is, that once someone has got down the basics of ASM and handling the chips, there are actually infinite possibilities where to go next, but tutorials can only present a view limited by their author.."
Agreed. For my own part, I could describe in great detail how I solved very specific and rather tricky problems for my game project, but that would probably not be useful for anybody because nobody else would encounter those problems (unless somebody would try to create a clone of the game -- which will never happen, I suppose) ;-)
For example, I guess nobody needs a routine that moves cursor-sized objects from and to random locations up to 16 cursors in x and y directions, taking into account that the object must do that in a predetermined number of game turns (1-6), depending on the euclidian distance? Even if so, I am sure there are other and more accurate sulutions than mine, so why write a tutorial on that?
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Quote: > Most cynicism comes anyway not from the tutorials but
> from the realization that people would want extensive SID
> instrument libraries (or to have the means to rip them
> from any PSID-file) instead of learning to do their own
Amount of GT tunes with snare taken from "Metal Warrior" example IS frightening, but don't forget that they were mostly done by beginners. Show me a musician who did not rip sounds when composing his first tune(s).
Just wait for those people to progress and you might be pleasantly surprised.
We'll see that GT will become the Compute Gazette Sidplayer of the "emulamer" age :)
As for my personal comfort, I only require to know that Reyn Ouwehand's LN3 style is possible to mimic with the editor given skill.
But still I don't think it should ever be the tool author's assumed responsibility (when speaking of a C64 util) to provide any sound libraries.
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
> We'll see that GT will become the Compute Gazette
> Sidplayer of the "emulamer" age :)
I don't think so. You can compose shit using any imaginable editor, and it happens often. Even with simple instruments (I have to agree that a majority people using GT does not pay enough attention to soundprogramming) nice results lie within your grasp, provided you are talented - Maktone is a good example.
I won't comment on that e word :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Well, it was used humorously, considering I do 100% development and 99% testing on you guess what :) |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
You Emulamer you!
Back to the tutorial-theme.
Well, before i found Puterman's Tutorial which i think is very good and helpfull i really found it hard to do anything in assembler (well, and it still is as i just made my first steps, but hopefully i'll manage to improve) because most beginners tutorials explain what lda, sta, beq, bmi etc. stands for and gives you examples on how to do little matc with adc etc..
But that's where most tutorials stop. What i always missed was some sort of explenation or example on how to use them. An example of how to read the joystick or at least give me some short infos about it, an example of how to do graphics (or the basics of doing so) and so on.
There's something missing betweedn the very basic stuff and the professional descriptions of professional effects.
There are for sure very good reasons to learn everything by yourself, but i think (and look back at school, it was the same there) it is better to give you something to play around with, some solid basis like basics of displaying graphics, playing sound etc. where you can later build on and probably improve.
You also have to keep in mind that today somebody would probably think twice before starting to learn to code for the all time greatest computer if he has to find everything out by himself by either trial-and-error or trying to understand other peoples code. ( The second one would probably result in more copy-and-paste routines but giving people some basic stuff to start with).
Or maybe the problem i had was that i didn't find the right stuff as it might be all there but scattered on the whole homepages, papermags and diskmags.
Maybe some sort of place where those tutorials, informations about the different behaviors of the different chips and stuff about different effects + sources would be gathered would be a very VERY good idea.
I guess there are still people around who would like to do something for their beloved machine (and i am not talking about music or graphics here (what isn't bad either)) but find it terrible hard to start and instead of releasing basic-shit they release nothing.
(one among the reasons why there weren't any real church-releases during the last 2 years by me but some msx and gfx)
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
One way to tackle this "intermediate" level is to try to re-enact in ASM what the various Basic examples in the C64 Programmer's Reference Guide are doing. This might be too "slow" or lame for one's liking though..
..as one thing is how quickly one expects results; for example a tutorial might show how to enable multicolor bitmap mode in ASM quickly & easily, but in the long run it's better to understand the functions of the individual bits in $d011 & $d016.
Also, there's the issue of whether or not one has programmed before on other systems or languages. I wouldn't necessarily recommend starting on C64 at all (of course it kind of sucks if eventually C64 coding is what you want to do) but the understanding of problem solving & algorithms might be easier to develop on a higher level language. I'm sure knowledge of x86 or 680x0 ASM doesn't hurt either but of course I understand this is strictly speaking "wasted" time in regard to C64 programming..
I'm sure one highly beneficial thing would be to scan a lot of diskmags and convert the tutorials/articles to text or html for easier viewing, but this is of course quite a large effort.. |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Actually I just started to think of doing something like that when i wrote my last post.
I think i'll start collecting & copying some tuts and docs and put them online in a sort of sorted way in (near?) future.
Any help with articles about this and that are highly welcome!
(Everything needed, beginning from explaining Rasters to some high-level-effects)
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Shake
Posts: 133 |
Pi, have you checked http://asm.daper.net/
maybe with some advertisement and support it could make this site the place to be for tutorials, sources etc. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Hey Pi, you're not trying to reinvent the wheel, are you?
The Best C64 Ml tutorial collection |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quote: cadaver: the next step would be... unnecessary. All the info you need is already there (and then there's a shitload of other articles that'll teach you everything from scrollers to SHIFLI). The point is that you don't need tutorials: you have to do a lot of work on your own. However, if you don't want to learn, that's a problem, and no tutorial will ever solve that problem.
_You_ already know that, but there are others who might not be as enlightened.
So true. there seem to be a lot of people who are willing to be able to code well on the c64. but most of them seem to lack the patience and dedication needed for that and, in the end, stop developing their skills at a very early point.
The best way of learning for me always was to have a look at the routines in the monitor. yet, i was way younger, and, as graham put it, old men are too weak to code and use to booze and dig on women instead. consuming is easier than producing ;)
for the retard scene term: in my eyes, retard scene of course means only part of the c64 scene. it may (most likely) be an elitist expression, but yes, i do consider myself part of the c64 elite and i'm feeling ashamed being part of the c64 scene at all when seeing utter crap on the big screen. doesn't mean i'm too arrogant to explain effects to people asking me or even wanting to improve their coding skills, though. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
this is the weird thing, those who do good stuff
and want to improve themselves and the scene
become the bad guys, while the ones who make crap
that embarass the scene are the good guys who
shouldnt be picked on.
anyway, i have considered translating and typing
the programming articles bacchus wrote for dmz,
i found them rather useful when i started out.
i could also correct some of the errors the
progam listings contain and add some explanations
that i would have found useful.
but then, most of the things can be read about
in programmers reference guide and probably
in a bunch of other articles on the net.
this is the difference, my only source for help
was computer magazines and the few books available
at the library, now you can leech quite a few
books from the net.
and usually when someone asks me for help to get
started, they ask once, i provide some information
and then i never hear anything from them again.
i wonder how many that are interested enough to
actually try and do something. i somehow doubt
that the big crowd of newcomers who are scared
away because of the evilness and elitism actually
exists |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
>>>"this is the weird thing, those who do good stuff
and want to improve themselves and the scene
become the bad guys, while the ones who make crap
that embarass the scene are the good guys who
shouldnt be picked on."<<<
Yup. But then, let's criticise groups/individuals who make and release/released fake demos in compos at parties. Why do we always slag on sort-of serious but crappy releases instead of pointing out that 4 of 8 releases at another german party were made in basic by some retard people who think they are so funny.
How about making a general agreement for future parties compo organisers about pre-selection in compos. Not allowing fake releases in compos at all. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
>Why do we always slag on sort-of serious but crappy >releases instead of pointing out that 4 of 8 releases at >another german party were made in basic by some retard >people who think they are so funny.
because most elitist sceners cant find any significant difference between the two types? |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
> this is the weird thing, those who do good stuff
> and want to improve themselves and the scene
> become the bad guys
There is a not-so-slight difference between struggling to improve yourself and thinking that you're on a mission to improve other people. The latter often leads to being highly intolerant. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: >Why do we always slag on sort-of serious but crappy >releases instead of pointing out that 4 of 8 releases at >another german party were made in basic by some retard >people who think they are so funny.
because most elitist sceners cant find any significant difference between the two types?
There is a difference. The ones are having so much fun in (and of) the scene while the others are taking criticism extremely seriously. We usually tend to accept fun-makers like people who are cool so we even don't care about criticising them while we can't stop ourselves of criticising people who are oversensitive about their releases.
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Creamy, no one likes stupid sex jokes in German (like Metalvotze stuff). But this doesn't mean that releases like 10 Years Role or Ficken are any better. They're supposedly not fake demos, but to me they're just as fake as Metalvotze's releases. The same goes for mags like Scene World and Rock'n'Role (note that the people responsible for these releases have left CSDb, so no one will be offended here).
I have no intention of trying to improve anyone. Sure it'd be cool if things would improve, but it doesn't seem likely (the Metalvotze guys keep releasing the same crap over and over, Scene World still don't play music while loading, after 8 issues and massive criticism, and Rock'n'Role's new magsys is actually worse than the older ones). All I'm saying is that you have to draw a line somewhere, and if releases are below that line, you should point out that they're absolutely pathetic and shouldn't have been released. And then it doesn't matter if it's a BASIC demo (and those are always pathetic) or a really crappy release that was meant to be serious.
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Puterman, you always seem to miss the point. Scene World does not have music while loading for NTSC compatibility AT THE MOMENT - I am working on using DreamLoader to change that in the next issue.
And just because you *think* Nafcom and Commander aren't here, doesn't mean you should insult them.
The only MASSIVE CRITICISM Scene World has received has been from yourself, whether it is on www.pouet.net, here or in personal e-mails. If you were CONSTRUCTIVE instead of just saying "It's bad", maybe we would listen to you. If you compare issue 1 with issue 7 (which is all we've released) you will see a lot of improvements.
As for this whole scene activity thread, it is a waste of time. There are things happening, people post messages about them, everyone is entitled to their opinion on what is lame or not. Hi to Deev/Onslaught, the Cosine crew and all the other active people in the UK scene... |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Btw. if maximum compatibility is what you're after I recommend giving "lameload" (kernal routines) option for those drives (IDE64?) even Dreamload can't handle.. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
If it's just a matter of compatibility, the loader Cosine have been using since 1993 (and we nicked it, i forget where from... =-) is perfectly happy on PAL or NTSC machines...
As for opinions, just because they're not stated here or on Pouet doesn't mean that people don't have them - checking somewhere like #c-64 will get a little more direct feedback (as well as all sorts of unusual propositions...!) |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
I'm in total agreement with Slator, end this thread.. It's gone a little too far for my slow dialup and Miss Universe was on tv yesterday.. Miss Sweden had Black Hair..
Miss Sweden had Black Hair..
Nothing matters anymore. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
TMR: I believe they might be trying to also get compatibility with the mysterious drives more popular in NTSC-land, in which Dreamload comes in? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Well it's drive and not NTSC compatibility then... in which case, maybe onefiling it'd be a good idea? Worked for Driven. =-) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: Well it's drive and not NTSC compatibility then... in which case, maybe onefiling it'd be a good idea? Worked for Driven. =-)
Yeah!
DRIVEN!!!
Elwix, Coolhand where are you?!! |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Merman, you always seem to miss the point of the criticism against Scene World. As you know very well, I've told you several times, eg. at Pouet, what I think really sucks about your mag. But still you always accuse me of just saying "it sucks". I know it isn't easy to react to negative criticism in a constructive manner, but lying really isn't a good solution.
Anyway, if the problem is that you can't remember, here's a reminder from the Pouet thread:
- Lots of text in the last issue of Scene World was ripped. I pointed that out. Nafcom replied that that wasn't true. Later you admitted that it was true, but thought that it was only about a third of the text in the mag, which you seemed to think was okay.
- The editing of the charts was awful, and as a result, there were tons of non-existent sceners in the charts, like Lacek. You didn't seem to think that this was a problem.
- "[N]o mention of Floppy." The message here was clear: try to write about what's happening in the scene, even if it means you have to write the text yourself, instead of ripping it.
- The loader issue. I didn't bring it up in that thread, because I'd already given up hope about that ever being fixed. TMR mentioned it, though.
I've also brought up these points and others earlier, in emails to the Scene World staff. And you can't be serious when you're saying I'm the only one criticizing you. But most people only try once and get a nonsense answer about their opinions being subjective, after which they give up.
So quit lying and concentrate of improving the mag, instead of just making excuses.
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Puterman, you always seem to miss the point. you are the only one who has given scene world MASSIVE CRITICISM.
so i guess there might have been heaps of lesser
criticism. or perhaps noone can be bothered to care
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
puterman seems to be one of those guys who sees themselves as the ppl who state that a release suxx because they simply don't like it. and then they give criticism and give it ti the scene as a fact or so.... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: puterman seems to be one of those guys who sees themselves as the ppl who state that a release suxx because they simply don't like it. and then they give criticism and give it ti the scene as a fact or so....
Puterman seems to be one of those guys who tells it like it is, with a list of solid reasons. I personally haven't read scene world (because most mags bore my brains out so why bother reading them?) but looking at the list he gave, I'd say that yes, there is plenty of room of improvement. And I guess you yourself could easily check to see if the points on that list are valid or not.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen = if you can't stand critisism, don't release anything. It's that simple. |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Let's get this straight. I am not LYING about Scene World, or making up excuses.
1) Ripped text - as I posted at pouet.net, Domination's news text was nearly identical to www.c64.sk, with some group status added. But Puterman chose to criticise us. I stand by my comment that a third of the mag was from the Internet - not ripped, but used with permission. Some of our readers do not have net access, so how else are they going to find out what's happening?
2) The charts - yes, there were mistakes. Variat used to edit them, then stepped down. Murdock offered, but Truss took over. There have been some problems, but we will try to iron them out.
Another point - our rules state "Do not vote for yourself, your group or your group's productions" - which means people are free to vote for Scene World. They don't automatically vote it as the best magazine.
Filtering out old sceners/releases - it's up to each mag to decide if they want to do this. At the moment, we don't.
3) Floppy party coverage - the party happened just days before we released the issue, we tried to get a party report in but it was not finished. There were results from the party, and a "preview" text.
4) Loader - now I have the source code from Macbeth, I can work on it. Issue 7 saw some improvements in the code to allow us to use two sides of the disk, the plan for issue 8 is to TRY and add Dream Loader.
As for people "giving up" on sending us messages, that sounds like an excuse you made up to support your views.
Dark Judge, I think it is a little harsh for you to judge us WITHOUT seeing the mag, based on Puterman's list. That's like me reviewing a movie without even watching it, then saying there was a problem with the plot.
The mag HAS improved from issue 1, the mag will continue to improve (there are several ideas waiting to be implemented) and I hope people will be open-minded enough to give it a chance - particularly if you have never read it before. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I wrote this article for the new issue of Attitude much long before the "Scene World" issue came up here, but as ususal, I like to disagree with Hollowman and TDJ just as a little monkey likes playing with his own balls (no Puterman is *not* the only one giving Scene World a massive critcism heheh :), so I have to paste this shit here (after Puter's post it already lost its actuality, eh, don't do that to me any more Puteronimo).
Oh and by the way, it's not SW, but the reactions chapter in Rock & Role that's named "Enemies" tells me more than anything, like how are some people dealing with criticism (I expressed that in the last issue of Attitude but, like moving an ant to the direction of the apple on the ground which is at least 50 feets away, get it huh).
Scene World #7 by People of Liberty
The intro is absolutely great, more or less that's how I imagine an introduction to a magazine: entertaining and fun to watch - not just a scroll and a logo - at least a tiny bit more than that. After pressing space and seeing the credits for the intro on the depacking screen, there we go to the magazine's editorial at once.
Trying to mime a hatred PC operation system on the C64 was never a too succesful idea, especially when one tries to adopt it for a magazine's outfit. A positive side of it is certainly the mouse-support, which suits me well when I read SW under CCS and turn on mouse-emulation. Then again, even Windows has smarter and "easier-to-use" navigation and keyboard-shortcuts, this kind is definitely not the simpliest way to read a magazine and to find what you're looking for (fast & easy usage, that's what I would expect from a scene-mag). I don't get the joystick's control via the keyboard, as if someone doesn't uses a joystick, would prefer a default and easy keyboard-control at least. Consequently, cursor keys would go fine for scrolling the article up and down, rather than controlling the pointer. And same goes for the article-menu. Whilst, positive points to the music-menu which is easy to reach and the option of printing an article (as previously seen and gladly accepted in Vandalism News).
The missing IRQ loader sucks majorly, that's a huge minus (not just) in my eyes, especially that it interrupts the music and the commie goes mute for a while. Makes me wonder, have we all passed to the 21 century or some of the sceners still stucked in the years of Madonna's dispisable virginity and the golden era of Sammy-Fox-strip-poker?
Designwise the magazine doesn't brings out the most from the C64, but it's decent, and since it's based on a GUI of a well-known OS, something like this is expected. Personally, I'd do that interface more elegantly, but IMHO only an HCL-like coder would be able to solve such ideas, so I'll just put here the "I'm satisfied" line and move to judge the articles.
As first, what I don't like. I don't like the articles ripped (or borrowed) from various websites. I don't like the charts (which I anyway loaded just because of this review), where some people and groups listed are not active since ages, nevertheless you can find magazines that don't exist any more. I don't like that there is an "All time composer" category and there's no "all timecoder or graphician", since when are composers superior to others?
The ripped text is obviously for entertaining the so-huge "mail-scene", especially those who live in Central-Afrika or the deserts of Mongolia, and never heard about the internet (which is of course a cheap excuse, as even I, who shake a c64/P1 equipment in the darn poor twilight zones of Serbia with a $100 +/- $50 monthly income, can connect to the internet at least once daily for approax. 15 minutes - that would be about $0.25/day, wooh!).
The charts should be either left out from the magazine or improved heavily - this way, it's useless and, just sucks...
And what I like, are some interesting articles. I really enjoyed Nightlord's essay about "concept and design in demos". "Profiles", as an alternative to interviews, or various party-reports, also gave some minutes of pleasureful reading. But actually, that's most of the exclusive content, other articles were already published somewhere on the net - thus not interesting to me at all.
The english is decent, easy to understand, and what's even more important, the quality of the textual side is constanly improving in this magazine (as an example, they seem to listen critics, and banned non-c64 related articles, which is a move to greet). |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Merman, please read my post carefully: I don't judge SW, I state: "LOOKING AT THE LIST, I'd say there's plenty of room for improvement.". Which was in response to Drake stating that Puterman just gives critisism without any foundation. Which he didn't. Because he gave his list of reasons. Yes?
I honestly don't give a flying fig if people release magazines like SW or Rock 'n Role, just as long as nobody expects me to read them. I don't even consider them part of the 'retard' scene, but I do value them less than other scene productions (or else I would read them), kind of like a 'b-scene'. Nothing wrong with that, after all we can't expect that everybody has the same high level.
And Jailbird, please stop playing with your balls, it's gross. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
The info in Domination might be from c64.sk, but not the actual text. See the different? Obviously not...
According to CSDb, SW7 was released on the 1st of May. Floppy was in February. Of course, 60-70 days is "just days" too...
So, I guess there were no lies or excuses in your last post either? Oh well. From now on (should have done this a long time ago): /ignore Merman |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
/ignores Puterman
Thanks for an honest appraisal Jailbird.
The all-time composer category was a suggestion from Murdock, and we have carried the chart for a couple of issues. This time it will be "all-time graphician".
I won't repeat myself on the subject of chart problems here, just say that I feel the Beergarden is wrong to filter their charts.
Dark Judge, you were saying Scene World could improve based on what Puterman was saying. You were judging us without knowing the truth. And as for this continued "retard/b-scene" argument, I don't give a flying fig about that. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Jailbird: for the internet, you only know your situation but other people have their own problems, like living in the middle of nowhere with bad line conditions and other costs. Next you say everyone should have a mobile/cell phone?
Shouldn't the Scene World discussions be somewhere else? Maybe some Rock n Role one should be started since the most recent edition has been released with Scene World best diskmag :)
As for scene activity, all things have their peaks and troughs and interest eventually paters away. People lose interest. We will all hav our own opinions, typically blaming PCs and the internet but many groups/sceners did leave the C64 for the Amiga too...
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I don't think it's strange that SceneWorld is #1 in Rock 'n Role, after all they cater to the same public.
By the way, I checked out R'n'R yesterday and also took a look at the last SW. Defenitely not my taste, both of them.
To be honest, there isn't one single diskmag that I look forward to reading right now. Even VN & Domination bore me, with their big word articles. Sometimes you can be too smart, you know?
I'm still waiting for an online magazine .. when we in Focus were planning to do one (back in '95, were going to call it CyberSh0ck) there were others who had the same idea. 8 years later: still nothing :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: I don't think it's strange that SceneWorld is #1 in Rock 'n Role, after all they cater to the same public.
By the way, I checked out R'n'R yesterday and also took a look at the last SW. Defenitely not my taste, both of them.
To be honest, there isn't one single diskmag that I look forward to reading right now. Even VN & Domination bore me, with their big word articles. Sometimes you can be too smart, you know?
I'm still waiting for an online magazine .. when we in Focus were planning to do one (back in '95, were going to call it CyberSh0ck) there were others who had the same idea. 8 years later: still nothing :)
Which leads me to the question. How are the judges at Dark Court?
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Lazy, that's why cyberSh0ck never became reality as well :) |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Any magazine you can read front to back in the time it takes to smoke a cigerette isn't a mag, i suggest we call it a "scene leaflette" or perhaps a "scene blurb"
tdj, if you're game for an online mag, so am i. I can kill an hour a day writing crapshit, just ask anyone on irc :) Alongside some virtual sweethearts like Hollow, Puter, TMR etc. it could vent off a lot of these "retard scene" aggressions. You could create peace in the 64 scene, the middle east, africa.. geez even Stryyker's pants could be at peace for one night :) |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
> As for scene activity, all things have their peaks and
> troughs and interest eventually paters away. People lose
> interest. We will all hav our own opinions, typically
> blaming PCs and the internet but many groups/sceners did
> leave the C64 for the Amiga too...
Many of us became active (or active again) owing it to the internet. I had no idea there still exists any interest in C64 until I stepped upon some compo results, published on EMU64 (AFAIR) in 1999. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Damn you Fade, now you have me seriously thinking this over .. I could try to get Sander do the design, come up with interesting chapters, get people involved who I know can write (so no Commander) ..
Argh! Go Away! |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Quote: Damn you Fade, now you have me seriously thinking this over .. I could try to get Sander do the design, come up with interesting chapters, get people involved who I know can write (so no Commander) ..
Argh! Go Away!
go on then,
what 'r u waiting for? |
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raven
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 137 |
That was a long read...
About learning to code & tutorials,
when i started learning to code Assembly it was 1986.
There was no internet & no tutorials. Only some lame books
and LOTS OF CODE.
This is the key and IMHO the *BEST* way to learn, start
your monitor and go to work on a routine you'd like to
learn.
Yes, it might take time & effort, but thats the only way
to get better.
No pain, no gain ;)
Today the resources are almost unlimited.
You'd be surprised the amount of help you might get by
only getting into #c-64 and asking around!
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
Shake, STeppe: didn't know both of them, checking at the moment and both look really nice.
I think i'll put the stuff i've collected so far (and still am) on my homepage when it will finally be relaunched (what may still take ages): )
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
TDJ: big words? you best get a dictionhairy. Should I perhaps write in broken-english or get the text translated to some other language then translated back to english again... h0h0h0...
Bring on CyberShock, I have been waiting too long... my nuts are itchy!
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
TDJ: I forgot to ask, last time. Will there be any more Dark Courts at c64.sk? Should I ask Wrath Designs for their intricate artsy fartsy reviews? Or Richard Bayliss with his earthy descriptive style? Maybe I should ask some polish dude who still calls western scene countries, "na zachodzie" (which in slovak means... on the toilet :) and writes his reviews in polish.. then translate them into English.. what should I do anyway? ;-))))
roman |
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Pater Pi
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 121 |
The last one sounds best (: |
