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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
CSDb voting system
I know that the voting system have been discussed before. But things tend to be questionable when people gives 1 point for Vanja's work. It's clear that some people just down vote really good entries for some reason. And it is always "anonymous" voting too. Noone seems to stand for their down votes, making them totally useless in my eyes.
I like the voting system, and think we should have one, but I really think we should stop allowing anonymous voting! The whole system fucks up when it's used.
Down voting sucks! |
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145 |
Maybe only the ones that vote very high or very low (e.g. 8-10 and 1-3) should be shown public. This could prevent up- and downvoting. Just my 2ct... |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
This is an endless discussion and I suggest Sledge that you think about the consequences with anonymous voting as well. When you do that you'll realize that it is impossible to have a "fair" voting system. Both anonymous and non-anonymous voting have the pros and cons. It's really hard to tell which system is best.
I suggest remove the voting system completely and only have user comments. A comment tells 1000 times more than a simple vote.
Or keep anonymous voting but when you vote you must also write a comment (anonymously) or something... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
I vote for removing all entries completely, so there's nothing to vote for anymore. And this vote of mine, it's anonymous, ofcourse. |
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Perhaps we could clear the anonymous votes before showing the names of the voters. By doing that you protect those who have been voting anonymously, and give them as chance to do a new vote or not?
It's not a big deal, but sometimes it feels a bit unfair when someone have done such a great job on a production, just to get down voted by someone (for whatever reason).
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
No anonymous voting!
If people cant stand by their votes or comments, they shouldnt make them! |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Or make an option to calculate ratings based on all or only public votes. Preferably the latter should be default.
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
I mean if someone really thinks a release deserves one point only, okay... but when it comes to certain releases like Vanja's latest graphics I guess it's safe to say the person who downvotes is either hostile against Vanja for what-the-heck-I-know reason for or he/she's just a jealous idiot with too much time, either way it's stupid.
Personally I don't really care about the votings anyway. |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
Anonymous voting be gone!
Although I must say I quite liked the idea of being forced to comment when voting as anon.
but the downvoting now sucks ;_;
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Example: http://noname.c64.org/csdb/toplist.php?type=scener&subtype=%281..
In the current cracker charts I'm on spot #59, while GRG is on spot #60, this is ridicolous as Glenn is a far better cracker than I am. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quote:In the current cracker charts I'm on spot #59, while GRG is on spot #60, this is ridicolous as Glenn is a far better cracker than I am.
That is because when someone votes for one entry in the list, (s)he isn't obliged to rank all others.
So ranking based on the current voting system is just plain nonsense.
The voting system doesn't work.
It's flawed, borked, useless and meaningless.
Therefor, I don't vote.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
and how will non-anonymous voting stop downvoting ? :) voting will be never "correct" even if there were no downvotes or no anonymity or if there will be forced comments. if you're interested, I have taken part in the downvoting bizz a few times when I saw some demos suddenly climbing, others suddenly falling, and I got angry. For example I have downvoted a few demos (guess which:) and gave Desert Dream a 10 to have it in the nr 1 position, after seeing it falling down suddenly, I felt little guilt as DD had its downvotes already, so now kill me :) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Maybe the person is allergic to dogs? Or fish? Or maybe they are deeply offended by over-the-top sugarcoated stickfigure cuteness, or maybe they just really really don't like my pictures.
Or maybe they do hate me, omg. Is it because I'm Norwegian? I swear, I've never clubbed a baby seal to death. No, really! Is it because I've started using Timanthes (I hear crossdev tools are killing the C64 you know)? Or is it because I ramble on and on in forum posts, hmm..
I doubt I'll ever find out, <lies> and I don't really care too much </lies>, but I have to admit I do wonder what the reason behind it really is.
Yes, voting has been discussed 100 times, there even was a poll on removing or keeping anonymous votes, I'm not sure what happened with that. So yeah...I don't really see the vote system changing anytime soon.
Now let's all roast some marshmallows and think about happier things! |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
mmmmmmmmmm... marshmellows.... and rookworst! <3
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
friendship-voting or downvoting is part of the scene since it started i guess... (competitions and so on)
its not nice - but its part of the scene.
and yes - if you change the voting-system - you shouldnt just make the hidden votes visible, but delete them. - or there will be alot of flamewars going on when ppl notice who downvoted em. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
1. Downvoting is formally "prohibited" but currently the banning system is too inefficient and we have to collect too mnay votes to ban person who does dowvnote selected persons regularly.
2. I think when system for banning will get more efficient some more obvious downovters will get their ass kicked in a split second. Therefore I advise persons who do such things to remove their downvotes (that also counts the person who lately downvoted Mermaid).
roman
p.s.: Mods don't check for downvotes regularly, but we can spot such irregularities anytime. As you can see from this thread, such covert behaviour only ends in discussions and reactions like this, which is unwelcome either. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
cream: as an alternative to banning people when you detect voting abuse, how about you just turn an anonymous downvote into a public vote, so everyone can see who the lamer is? That should make the dorks a little more cautious...
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
still i dont know what a downvote is... if i would vote a 5 or a 4 on mermaids latest gfx - would that be a downvote or not? (i didnt do that - its just an example) who is the one to decide if i have to like or dislike something? maybe i just dont like hires gfx (i like them but just want to give examples)
the cdsb "asks" for votes... and no one should censor the votes i think. because censoring anyones opinion never is a good idea.
so if ppl dont like downvotes - the voting system should be removed - or we just have to deal with downvotes.
thats my 2 cents. |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 847 |
magervalp:
Exactly! Why can't all these downvotes with "hidden" users be shown to us ? It makes me sick when I see really cool releases and "good scener" profiles that include ridiculous vote "1" figures submitted by some anonymous lamer(s). It proves no more no less that those particular "users" are either taking the piss, or have some sort of hatrid or jealousy against the person. There's really no other reason why they do it, unless the production is of course very bad. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Yazoo:
The way I see it... 5 is average, anything 6 and up is better than average, I wouldn't consider 5 a downvote.
Giving something 1 (awful) when all other votes are between 7 and 10, and/or giving someone 1 all the time no matter what they release, I'd consider downvoting, and I'd start suspecting that the vote has more to do with personal grudges than judging the actual release.
But that's just my personal opinion. |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
I Completely agree with Vanja here.
The way I see it... 5 is average, anything above that is average turning better to the best (10) anything below 5 is slowly turning from average, to below average (3-4) to the utter worst crap (1)
(there are actually only a couple of cases out of all those 53.xxx releases and xxxx people and xxxx groups, that really deserve that vote if I had to apply my own voting standard in here. And since I am still the most active voter in this database I think I know what I am talking about !)
I wouldn't consider 5 a downvote.
Downvoting is pretty obvious these days. Just check how it is used to lower the grades and pull that ugly stunt trick in the bottom. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
I posted my idea of voting somewhere here before and I still consider it best. In short: dont vote 1-10 but have a list (with to-be-considered maximal length) of releases (coders, gfx) you like best. In today's world that adds up to a nice Top10 after all.
I personally wouldnt vote a 5 (I think). If I like something I give 7-10. 7 usually means I took a deep look and it didnt quite hit me. I see no reason in voting below average. But as long as it exists I agree with Yazoo (if that was his opinion): let people vote what they want. Even a "downvote" carries quite some information, doesnt it? At least the votes as such are public. The vote-evaluating-system is fucked up anyway if you ask me :) |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
Quote: I posted my idea of voting somewhere here before and I still consider it best. In short: dont vote 1-10 but have a list (with to-be-considered maximal length) of releases (coders, gfx) you like best. In today's world that adds up to a nice Top10 after all.
I personally wouldnt vote a 5 (I think). If I like something I give 7-10. 7 usually means I took a deep look and it didnt quite hit me. I see no reason in voting below average. But as long as it exists I agree with Yazoo (if that was his opinion): let people vote what they want. Even a "downvote" carries quite some information, doesnt it? At least the votes as such are public. The vote-evaluating-system is fucked up anyway if you ask me :)
thats a good idea |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
Quote: I posted my idea of voting somewhere here before and I still consider it best. In short: dont vote 1-10 but have a list (with to-be-considered maximal length) of releases (coders, gfx) you like best. In today's world that adds up to a nice Top10 after all.
I personally wouldnt vote a 5 (I think). If I like something I give 7-10. 7 usually means I took a deep look and it didnt quite hit me. I see no reason in voting below average. But as long as it exists I agree with Yazoo (if that was his opinion): let people vote what they want. Even a "downvote" carries quite some information, doesnt it? At least the votes as such are public. The vote-evaluating-system is fucked up anyway if you ask me :)
I like the idea of personal charts. It would be a sort of tribute to traditional mag charts votesheets. Although I think there would be problem with updates, the would have been to be unlimited if you want to give chance to new stuff to get into your rank ;-) I mean, such system is good for alltime favourites but not for lively scene (*cough*) like our one ;-)).
And there is no problem with occassional downvote here or there. Everyone has privilege to use anything from the scale. But when someone votes 1 for every new release from someone. That won't come unnoticed. (it's quite funny actually because yesterday I wrote in mod-forum that such things stirr reactions like (the one by E.S. under one of the releases) and see.. there is not only reaction under the releasse but whole thread about it.. and that's something sad about it.. one person behaving unethically making whole bunch of others talking about it... ;-)
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
btw theres another big problem i see in this voting-system...
what if a lamer starts coding and releases several bad demos? he would receive a lot votes of 2 or 3...
half a year later he becomes a really good coder, but will have to deal with those low votes for the rest of his scene-carreer because lots of ppl forget about changing their votes - or left the scene meanwhile.
i suggest the votings (for ppl and groups) should be reset sometime.
if we in oxyron would do the perfect demo, its still nearly impossible to become the best demogroup on csdb - because alot of ppl voted a long time ago - based on the coma light series and some other demos... im not whining btw. just wanted to give another example for the weak points of this voting system...
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11351 |
Quote:
I suggest remove the voting system completely and only have user comments. A comment tells 1000 times more than a simple vote.
nothing more to say. moreover i suggest people who release stuff to ignore the voting results alltogether. voting here is flawed and useless, for the reasons already mentioned in this and a dozen similar threads =) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
I'm with Yazoo & Groepaz |
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Ed
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 173 |
@Yazoo: Do you really believe that we do not change our votes from time to time. After all Oxyron was quite a productive but still according to some people lame in the beginning. Personally I always found your stuff good and it only got better by time. Now, more than 10 years ago I still look back at your old stuff and change my ideas, my votes.
So this whole group/release/person reset it probably one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. I think it is all up to us to decide whether to change our votes or not. Not some automated system
(by the way, you tell me, is there a possibility of automating the votesystem? In that case we could easily have a machine doing the voting as well!)
/Eddie |
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Now we are talking. Automated voting. Who is the best according the the machine? Even better would be if we could get a Commodore 64 to do calculation on the voting :D
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Quote: Now we are talking. Automated voting. Who is the best according the the machine? Even better would be if we could get a Commodore 64 to do calculation on the voting :D
Amen. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11351 |
Quote:
Do you really believe that we do not change our votes from time to time.
i can assure you that only a very small number of people does that. |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
Quote: @Yazoo: Do you really believe that we do not change our votes from time to time. After all Oxyron was quite a productive but still according to some people lame in the beginning. Personally I always found your stuff good and it only got better by time. Now, more than 10 years ago I still look back at your old stuff and change my ideas, my votes.
So this whole group/release/person reset it probably one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. I think it is all up to us to decide whether to change our votes or not. Not some automated system
(by the way, you tell me, is there a possibility of automating the votesystem? In that case we could easily have a machine doing the voting as well!)
/Eddie
yes, i really believe that its just a handful of sceners changing their votes for groups and sceners after some time ;-) and why would somebody who eventually retired during the last years come back to csdb and change his votes? :-) thats why i think the votings for sceners and groups should be reset sometimes (no need to do that for releases because they dont change) or should be disabled. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: yes, i really believe that its just a handful of sceners changing their votes for groups and sceners after some time ;-) and why would somebody who eventually retired during the last years come back to csdb and change his votes? :-) thats why i think the votings for sceners and groups should be reset sometimes (no need to do that for releases because they dont change) or should be disabled.
Releases don't change, but people's feelings about them do. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
Quote: yes, i really believe that its just a handful of sceners changing their votes for groups and sceners after some time ;-) and why would somebody who eventually retired during the last years come back to csdb and change his votes? :-) thats why i think the votings for sceners and groups should be reset sometimes (no need to do that for releases because they dont change) or should be disabled.
would you like to revote 1000 prods each year ? |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
Quote: would you like to revote 1000 prods each year ?
you quoted me - maybe you should have quoted TDJ instead :) ... i dont think it would be useful to reset the votes for the productions. i just think that it would be necessary to reset the votes for groups and sceners - because their skills can change - i hope you got my point.
@TDJ... well, sure you can change mind about a production. but you made your voting-decision based on fixed facts (productions dont change anymore)... but skills of sceners and groups can change, so the facts may change |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
I think ppl should realize that there's no flawless voting system, and take votings less seriously. |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
Quote: I think ppl should realize that there's no flawless voting system, and take votings less seriously.
yup, i think its not possible to create a perfect voting system. but its possible to improve it and make it a little more significant.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
I don't want to stirr too much attention towards that but just FYI, Vanja's secret admirer has been banned. The voting system allows to unban account too but that won't likely happen in this case because of fake E-mail. According to owner of domain where the e-mail of the user was pointing, such E-mail never existed there. I would also like to assure you that in accordance with Rule 6. ( http://noname.c64.org/csdb/help.php?section=rules ) we won't tolerate obvious cases of anonymous retaliatory downvoting. |
