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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Wiring?
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, the english I read here is a bit messy for me to understand. Do I smell someone accusing me that I wire, or the opposite?
Quote from the latest Beergarden.
"Personally I'm a beleiver that 'REAL C64' gfx artist should pixel out the whole picture that they draw. Not wire it from Amiga or PC onto C64 then touch it up in an art package and then lay claim to fame on it.To me this is MIGHTY LAME and for these of you reading who don't know what I'm getting at, then just search your spreads for some recent gfx by JAILBIRD. Study his gfx carefully, they look good don't they..? So they should as wiring doesn't require anyway near the work or effort as does pixelling every dot on the C64."
Hope I just missunderstood these lines, but anyhow, proofs about my cheating would be higly appreciated, all the more as I always (unlike other "artists") prove my C64 handpixelling by numerous work stages.
I don't get why was I picked out nevertheless, wether if the author of the article thinks I cheat or not.
Then, you spend countless hours on minor innovations in c64 pixelling, you dedicate original graphics to the audience, whilst NOt COPYing other graphics artists, you fight on every kind of forums for high class fair-play on pixelling-competitions, or for the workstage-rules, and then you get a nice slap on your face. Well thank you.
My motivation is on the floor and my sadness is really deep. :((( |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
Hi Arnold,
I just think you got the guy wrong as he took you as an example that graphics that are pixelled on a c64 can look excellent.
lol at least that's what I read between the lines as the style was hard to follow :D
regards |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Really easy to missunderstand. I still feel a bit crushed down.
Thanx Slator, and if a Beergarden staff member will strenghten your opinion, I'll go back to normal :).
By the way, warm up your VIC engines, results from "C64.SK's Pixelcompo" will be announced tomorrow at 10:00AM, and the graphics will be downloadable immediately. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Well, the English is a little messy, but i'd say it reads something like "have a look at how good Jailbird's pictures are, that's because he put a lot of work in and didn't just wire". |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
when I read through that chapter, I took it to mean yours were an example of quality hand-pixelled gfx, though I can see reading that quote why it could be taken the other way. Maybe more care should be taken by whoever wrote that text (Tomz?) to make himself clear. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
They are the words of Tomz, I'm sure if you get to the last page you will see his moniker. |
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Oxidy
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 80 |
<quote>To me this is MIGHTY LAME and for these of you reading who don't know what I'm getting at, then just search your spreads for some recent gfx by JAILBIRD. Study his gfx carefully, they look good don't they..? So they should as wiring doesn't require anyway near the work or effort as does pixelling every dot on the C64.</quote>
When reading Beergarden yesterday I came to the same conclusion as Jailbird. I was not 100%, but it felt like the writer meant that Jailbird was wiring. Writing in a language you don't control can cause misunderstandings and I think this is yet another case. Nevertheless, the only person who knows for sure what was meant would be Tomz. If he meant that Jailbird was wiring then JB deserves to know why he thinks that. If not, I think it's appropriate with a official clarification in the next issue.
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
How do the average reader (those whose english is not a mother-language) interprets these lines? I think there is only one way:
"Personally I'm a beleiver that 'REAL C64' gfx artist should pixel out the whole picture that they draw. Not wire it from Amiga or PC onto C64 then touch it up in an art package and then lay claim to fame on it."
The author is referring to converting pictures from a mightier platform to C64 and touching it up in a C64 pixel-program... Then, the next sentence is:
"To me this is MIGHTY LAME and for these of you reading who don't know what I'm getting at, then just search your spreads for some recent gfx by JAILBIRD."
My "translation" is: that's lame, and if you wan't to see lame, converted/touched up pictures, check out some graphics by Jailbird.
"Study his gfx carefully, they look good don't they..? So they should as wiring doesn't require anyway near the work or effort as does pixelling every dot on the C64."
Converting doesn't need any effort, thus when you convert and touch-up, it's easy to produce good pictures.
And Tomz concluded this by studying my graphics in a way we're not introduced to.
If the article is after all, positive, why don't he picked someone better than me, f. e. Deekay, Electric or Sander. If his words are negative, a proof that consist just of "studying his graphics carefully" is for me, not enough, nevertheless there are "graphicians" that can be brought up as much finer examples on graphics-converting, f. e. Rayden (or Booze Lee).
The same way Deekay accused Sebaloz (who doesn't wires for sure, that's a bet), Quasar (neither wires, just had a strange tehnique, who after all lost his motivations and as I know, left the scene) and Valsary.
I realy don't have anyhing against Beergarden, it's one of my favourite magazines, but I can't just pass over this kind of writing, wich doesn't differs a lot from "understandable writing" or "investigate journalism" of other magazines that are actually hatred or voted down by Tomz for the same reasons. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Jailbird:If you want it to go further and more wide then maybe you could do one? None of us in Tide have much graphics ability and your views on gfx would be taken more seriously. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I mean you views would be taken more seriously than ours (in case someone misreads it). |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
JB: i can think of a reason why you'd could well be singled out in a positive light; Deekay, Electric and Sander haven't released anything lately... |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: JB: i can think of a reason why you'd could well be singled out in a positive light; Deekay, Electric and Sander haven't released anything lately...
What? Sander hasn't released anything lately?
The lazy bastard .. that's it .. I'm going to look for a new graphician for Focus NOW! |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Well, the last release in the CSDb he's credited for as a member of Focus is Singles Collection volume 1 and that was close to a year ago...? =-) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Well, the last release in the CSDb he's credited for as a member of Focus is Singles Collection volume 1 and that was close to a year ago...? =-)
What? Sander has been cooperating on Singles Collection volume 1?
That's even worse!
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Pppphhhhpppptttt. =-) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Haha, LOL, TDJ :)
In a private mail to me, Stryyker told me that if an opinion of a small number would matter, many of us would stop with scening. I do not inted to stop that's for sure, but such a respected mag can spread the word to many people. Lot may be convinced, even if they're not sure.
Due to that, I opened some of my workstage-disks to wide public.
Download the disks directly from here:
http://c64.rulez.org/~jailbird/pixelrus/workstages/sadness/sadn.. (Sevenfold Obsolete Sadness - - workstage pack)
http://c64.rulez.org/~jailbird/pixelrus/workstages/jazz/jazz.zip (Jazz Recital - - wokstage pack)
Or visit my site, and follow the links for gif screenshots and brief explanations:
http://c64.rulez.org/~jailbird |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Taken from Jailbird's site:
"The left girl's hand, hard stuff, I suffer a lot."
Ooooooooooookay .. :) |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Who is Tomz to comment on "to wire or not to wire" anyway. why would it be easier to use a mouse and lets say vodka's elitepaint vs mouse and amica paint ?
crap topic that belongs in the attic, the days of converting a copyrighted .jpg from amiga/pc to c64 are not that common, and if an artist chooses to _pixel_ on pc so be it. and for all those who now think I "wire" pics drawn on amiga/pc -> piss off. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: Taken from Jailbird's site:
"The left girl's hand, hard stuff, I suffer a lot."
Ooooooooooookay .. :)
TDJ, oh you , I'll dedicate a my next pixelpoopoo with a close-up of that "hard stuff" to you. If the girl spanks it hard and long enough to repixel it to the commie.
Blackdroid: discussed to death, pixelling on PC in certain circumstances is ok imho too. I pixel some fastie pictures and logos for different productions in GFX2/PC (when I'm not at home yet have a PC nearby), but I think it's the competition where you must be fair and hand in a picture that was done on a C64, that's the point when you'll get introduced to the graphician's real skills, not the skills of a converter or the advantages that a PC gives to the pixeller. |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
and then we come to the core of c64: it's still only 8 bit so the painter needs some skills to make his picture the best. even when it's converted from pc/amiga. |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Well you have c64 editors on "pc" so its the same challenge. |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
pc is a different kind of computer than commodore. when painting in ifli f.e. you will see some flickering on the screen of your c64. on pc there is no flickering.
i'm not sure if its the same challenge. |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
ok could be emulated ;) but yeah ifli would be the only mode that you really dont get a close resemblence at first glance. but ifli is lame ;) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
personally I believe it's the same challenge on the PC or C64. The flickering in IFLI is irrelevant as you're still ultimately going to convert the pic back to c64 format where the flickering will become an issue (if anything it's harder pixelling on a PC because you've got to keep in mind the potential flicker and know how to keep it to a minimum without actually seeing it!).
In my opinion it's all about being able to visualise how to create an effect on the screen in the c64's resolution with the c64's palette. Your ideas don't differ whether you're using a PC or a C64, it's just that PC tools usually make getting there a lot faster!
I wouldn't use a PC prog for pixelling in compos because I know some people consider it cheating, however, I wouldn't feel cheated if I were beaten by a pic pixelled on the PC because I don't believe it makes the graphician any better (so long as they're pixelling by hand from a blank canvas and not just converting something and 'touching up' the results). |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Once I made a fullscreen IFLI picture (from my mind) on PC in just 4 hours, if I compare that to spending two, three days of pixelling on Commodore 64 if I'm lucky enough to have so much free time - I indeed see the difference. Pixelling on the PC/Amiga (NOT Vodka's Elitepaint, but GFX2, Deluxe Paint, ProMotion, Pixel32, Brilliance, even Photoshop or Paint Shop) is much easier, why? Look at the advantages:
- much more options you can utilise (both hi-res/lowres - FLI/Multi-colour), not just the point-line-fill trio like in most of the c64 pixelling programs, but for example: deformed-lines, transparent effects, automatic antialiasing, tiling, brush-tiling, much smarter streching/distorting routines, alternative brush handling... etc...etc...
- adjustable mouse control (amica paint's mouse driving compared with PC's, is like I'd compare a Skoda to a Ferrari - they're both cars), just try to draw a smooth curve in one move in Amica Paint and then go try in on PC
- different zoom modes: 2x, 3x, 4x... up to 20x, depending on which program you use - compare that to C64's 8x or eventually, 4x zooms. And all that fucking fast!
- copy/paste of higher kind, try copy/paste a semi-finished something on c64 for 13 pixels to the left and see what you'll get - go for another 2 hours of improving the color-bugs
- less than a second save routine, compare that to Gunpaint's 133 block's save, you can save a stage on PCs every half a minute, every 10 seconds if you want, and it still won't disturb the process of pixelling, nevertheless you don't have to take care about fucked up disks and the space on the hard-disk
- five zillions of SMART undo's, I believe that the most C64 has is a one-step undo in Amica Paint, and it destroys everything you've painted while you were in the zoom-mode - you can ether undo back
- colour change with adjustable keyboard-short cuts, and color-change in general
- lotsa lotsa adjustable shortcuts
- adjustable resolutions, some resolutions are much more useable for graphicians than C64's strict resolution
- pre-set colour-fades
- adjustable dithering, brush dithering - fill a dithered area on PC in five seconds, while on C64 you'd pixel for five hours (dithering in C64/IFLI is the fucking hardest thing to do, on PC it's a child's play)
- more than two buffers
- color-picking (pipette tool), a thing that I've never seen on the c64
- one-click picture recolorizing (even deformed areas - no way on c64)
All these advantages stand for basic hires/lowres, ifli/nonifli. Now tell me there's no major difference between pixelling on PC or C64. Basically, no big deal in pixelling on monster-platforms.
The only disadvantage of PC/Amiga pixelling is obvious: you don't know how will the picture exactly look on the c64. But that's all, and even if some parts look shitty on the real thing, you can improve them in 15 minutes, and cool, in 5 hours, you pixelled a kickass c64 picture - the only catch is that you hardly even touched the c64, for making the pictuer as good as possible, you have used most of the advantages (if not the all) of a PC, such handles that a Commodore64 will never have.
Heres the phunny part: after that, you tell people to check your picture on the real thing as otherwise it will look shitty. ;)
Commodore 64 pixelling is PIXELLING ON THE COMMODORE 64, as otherwise they would call it "PC pixelling of Commodore 64 pictures", but since there is no such category on party compos, I don't see the reason of pixelling C64 graphics on PC for competitions, especially if I have a C64 powered up on the desk beside me. |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
So with a good editor on c64 you would cheat against those who used a lesser editor on c64/amiga/pc ?!? :)
logic doesnt hold. personally I think Ed's c64 gfx program is way better than elitepaint on pc ( one example ).
Brilliance is my favourtie all-time pixel program. unfortunately Im too lazy to even fix some space for putting up my amiga ( no UAE wont do for me ).
And just as Deev I would not feel cheated because someone pixeled his pic in Aura/Dpain/Brilliance and I did it in Amica paint + mouse ( which is kinda fast. same amount of work for sketching as on any other prog, eventhough amica paint has an almost painfully slow update ). |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Not a single c64 graphics-program (even the fucking best) will reach near that brilliant level of Brilliance and the advantages of a higher platform's OS. Ergo a graphician who's using a c64 graphics program will never have the same advantages that a pixeller has who is using Amiga/Brilliance or PC/GFX2. Pixel-competing is based on fair-play and that you all work on the same platform and with all its disadvantages, with its native tools. Using a PC for creating a picture is easy (at least much easier than using a C64 - even with it's best tools), and if you enter it to a competition where the other graphicians sweated blood while creating their works, is not fair. If you don't care about fair play, well that's another story, I can't help about that.
Deekay compared this with entering to a cycle entering the 100m dash, but here's an proper example you probably all know about: Ben Johnson, the Canadian sprinter who was disqualified in the 1988 Seoul Olympics for having stanozolol in his organism. Imagine how the other runners felt like, as they didn't wanted (fair play, honesty), or (worst) maybe they wanted, but didn't had the opportunity to use drugs.
IMO C64 pixel-scene works something like the same-way. While you don't enter a competition, noone will care if you "used dopes" or not, perhaps your mamma.
To use Vodka's Elitepaint on PC, well yes, that really doesn't differs a lot from pixelling on the commie, in fact it's even worse than some proggies on the c64. But it's not the platfrom that counts but the same chances and possibilities.
Hello, if you're a c64 pixeller, means you can easily get for free and access to the same programs, tools, format-converters or whatever the other graphicians are using (anyone can mail me and I'll send the programs I use asap), while if you want to catch up with those who are using a PC/Amiga, you'll have to buy a new computer, eventually even pay a fortune for legalizing your version of Photoshop. Look, noone is forcing you to use a lamer pixelling proggie on the commie, but it's much harder to get a PC for enjoying the ADVANTAGES of a graphics-proggy that a C64 program will not have in this world, ever (I can go bore you again with advantages/disadvantages stuff, but nah...). |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic.
I dont think its any difference. its just tools to help me portray a thought. same as acrylic/oil is in real life ( and boy was there a discussion about how big a cheater one was if using oil based colours when it first came ).
Now if you excuse me I have to get back to Amica paint and lay down some pixels for LCP.
ciao. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Well true, many different opinions on this topic...
By the way anyone interested volunteering to pretend to be Jailbird at LCP and contribute with a picture? :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I mean, since the contributor must be present at the party... |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Does it include wearing a wig and a cute dress ? ;) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Lets not go there Blackdroid, at least not until i can afford the air fare... =-) |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Ive heard its real cheap with Ryanair. all the more money for the wig :) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
Jailbird, I personally think some of the advantages you listed are quite minor and mostly not the sort of thing I would use anyway (keyboard shortcuts, tiling, distortion, colour-picking). Some could be useful, but I believe could pixel the effect better (auto anti-aliasing, transparencies etc.).
To me, the main advantages of GFX2 are these (I think you mentioned most of them already):
- dithered brushes are a godsend! this is the main one for me, as you so rightly say, you can spend hours in funpaint just setting alternate pixels.
- brush sizes of more than one pixel (especially useful to do outlines)
- better copy and paste tools
- my pc mouse is much more natural than an 8-way digital joystick - especially when coupled with a mouse driven interface.
- improved file handling, being able to quickly save regularly.
There's maybe some smaller ones such as being able to replace certain colours, but that's about as far as it goes (maybe I'm not using PC tools to their full potential? :) ). These are nearly all just time-saving advantages. I could create the exact same effect by pixelling in a c64 tool, but it would just take more time.
I don't agree with the Ben Johnson comparison (or the bike arguement) because as I already said, I don't believe it makes the end result any better, it just means I can get there with a little less hardship. |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Amica paint rant follows :)
Pattern brushes ( you can make a dithered brush )
Different brush sizes
Mouse support ( get the ps/2 adapter now :)
Fast load/save since the files are generally around 20/30 blocks. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
I often use quite a lot of the options of GFX2, not because of my lack of knowledge, but as I'm mostly too lazy to do the effects by hand when I have them just a klick away. I could just pixel all the effects better, but basically the automatic play takes off sth like 50% from the ditching with them (using anti aliasing is one of the major things that separates good pixeller from the rookie, and here you get them for free, quite fine anti-aliasing actually if you set the values right). I've seen my brother "pixelling" such things in a combination of Photoshop and GFX2 (not converting stuff, but motives plain from his mind), he would never be able to produce on the c64, perhaps with several years of practice, but probably beat most of us on a compo... And that makes me wonder... Come on, let's just pixel on c64, we'll all be happy and have the same chances and stuff :) What would you do if there was no PC or Amiga?
I'll still prefer worstages and non-moving pictures on parties, that'll eliminate most of the PC pixellers, so do what you want anyway, I don't care really... In fact I'll try to convince Cactus to include a GFX2 pixelling /C64/ tutorial into the next issue of Attitude.
And if you don't agree with me I'll leave the CSDb forum and never come back again, you buch of gay multimedia lovers. You always fight with me, you! |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
well even with tools such as anti-aliasing, I wouldn't *want* to use them, even if just for a demo pic. It wouldn't feel like it was me who'd done the pixelling if I used techniques like that. Maybe I'm just weird, but I get a sense of satisfaction from making a curve look nice and smooth :) All I want is a way to do what I do, but with a bit more speed and less hassle, which is what I get with the advantages I mentioned above.
I still don't intend using any pc tools for compo pics in the near future, simply because I know so many people still consider it an unfair advantage and I don't want anyone to feel that I've cheated them out of a place. If I finish above you, I want you to know I kicked your arse fair and square :D
Blackdroid, you've just convinced me to give Amica Paint a try next time I'm doing a bitmap :) |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
heheh well everyone know Amica paint roxors :D now If some valiant soul could enhance the refresh rate id be a happy camper. |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
you gotta be on drugs.. amica paint? maybe they haven't got to such uncivilised worlds yet, but the lord and father jeevus preaches "Centauri is the way, the truth and the life". And if not, use Advanced Art Studio :)
[awaits Norweigan gfx propaganda right about... .. . now!] |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
lame.. no comment. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
i still live in Paint Magic from time to time, with VidCom to do the attributes later... =-) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
<norwegian gfx propaganda> listen you infidels, Zoomatic is the only program and Olav Mørkrid is God </norwegian gfx propaganda> |
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J.T.
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 2 |
zoom what ? ;) |
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Spinball
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 88 |
so if i´m using all this cmd-extra-hardware-shit, like hd or even super-cpu would that be an "illegal" advantage?
saving will be a lot faster and one could add some more undo steps to an reu/superramcard-enabled amica-paint.
or even petter, what about a gfx-editor for some "modern os" like wings, just think about the possibilities...
it´s strange that this kind of diskussions always are about gfx. i mean no one seems to care if a coder did his code in a simple monitor on c64 or with some macro-crossassembler on pc/amiga.
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
you dont need all that stuff, just an action replay v5. the only viagra for your 64 :) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I guess with code it doesn't change (or very little if it does). As for the extra hardware like CMD made, many dislike it and don't care about it. C64 + 1541 and maybe a freeze cart and joystick, nothing more for most. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Supercpu, reu, ramlink, hd? I wouldn't even dare to call such an equipment a Commodore 64. :)
Crossasembler won't make your code better, as far as I'm awared. With pixelling on PC, most likely one can do such things a pixelgraphician with average skills would not be able to do on the c64 (just look at the transparent effect as an example, in GFX2 it's just a click, but even a talented pixeller suffers hours and hours to paint a huge transparent effect on the C64). |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
Crossassemblers can help in the process if they assemble faster, support more nifty features, does not have the same size limits as on c64. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Ah, but on PC there'll be distractions such as hentai or IRC :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048 |
It doesn't matter which program you use to pixel or draw the image it's just a tool. For a compo, there should be only one rule. No conversions. The rest (the techniques used, the software for creation used) are not important.
Although I see a reason in your points, Jailbird, but graphics compo is not a sport discipline. Unless you will force everyone to use the same GFX editor and draw online on the party, you will never force people to submit pictures drawn on other systems. As a party organiser I can agree with things like no-scrolling-pictures, no-interlace-images, no-conversions (creating images using converting programs), no-copies (creating images by redrawing, converting other authors work), or even with - submit drawing stages otherwise you will be disqualified, but I can't tell people which software, or hardware use to create them. The only rule about hardware is,that it should be executable on C64.
Let's be pragmatic. We can't enforce too much rules, as it would put away all the joy. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
None the less, I am still at a state where I couldn't agree with my conscience if I would play with advantages others can't, and reach a spot infront of those who used a C64 only. But that's my problem only, eh... :) Although, as less serious I get with all this scening thing, the more I reach toward a point where I see the importance of using a help of a PC instead of a using a C64 only, for making C64 graphics. I often run out of time while pixelling, leaving my works semi-finished. Numerous of times I realise I'm spending much more time with my C64 than with my friends. "Luckily", we are enjoying a scene that totally excludes the need of the physical existence of the computer we're "working" for/on. Setting rules against/for the hardware or tools you (don't) use while pixelling is senseless indeed, I agree. Preventive rules however, could be intelligible, for example the workstages-rule, that could defend the graphicians that spent much work and time for creating from those who open some photos, cut, paste, play a bit with filters, nasty photoshop tools, push a few buttons, and call that "creating graphics". That's pure "wiring" or "converting"in my definition, and the workstage-rule works just fine for excluding such images from compos. The same rule could prevent most of those who pixel on PC (as long they don't pixel in programs that are especially made for c64 pixelling).
As I expressed many times on this thread, the only muck in my eye is that the C64 software is reachable for all, free off charge, whilst the PC/Amiga/Whatever hardware is not, thus the advantages you get with pixelling on another platform is in my eyes, unfair to those who pixel on raw C64s. Yes, I look on compos a bit more serious as other scene actvities in general, I can compare it to a race after all. A rough example, but if you'd compete on drilling a hole into the wall, where you'd forced to use a mechanic driller while your opponent has an electric, I wonder what your opinion would be on that ("it's not the hardware, that's just a tool, all you create is a hole after all" ;P ).
Is there a program for creating musics on PC where you get random, original, and cool intstruments with a single click? Where a bunch of tasks are automated, easy to handle and the overall results sound much better than if the music would sound if made on the c64? If there would be such a program, what would be your reaction if a music made with that PC editor would tear down others on a compo that made their works on C64, with native, raw, hard work? You'd move forward without a word, obtain the tool and create musics in it yourself.
Were you guys satisfied seeing Rayden's and Cyclone's and IFLI infront of DeeKay's UIFLI monsterbastard from Symmek2000? Dudes, two of the top3 images were done on Amiga/PC! I recall complaints those days, from the same persons that are beside non-limited pixelling today. Funny, or rather strange.
However, if a no-conversion rule (as you say, creating images using converting programs) stays, that would exclude PC graphics tools anyway, or using another platform than C64. As you are, read, "creating /c64/ images using converting programs /or converting routines/. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
FLI etc. are all software modes like the scrolling pictures. Why not make a rule all are limited to put data to screen and then the make the CPU do opcode $02 (it jams the CPU so no more processing takes place until a reset). Personally I don't care and as for music editor, if the editor on PC was more comfortable for me to use then I'd use it :)
I guess it would be possible for someone to fake work stages a little. If there are good prizes for offer in compos then the extra work might be worth it to some (I'm too lazy myself).
Does this discussion make much sense? Probably not but will keep happening :) |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Some of you might be interested, I uploaded new workstage packs to http://c64.rulez.org/~jailbird |
