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mogwai
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 5 |
SID burn protection
I am planning to build a SID protection card in order to prevent more SIDs for travelling to silicon heaven.
Anyway, the reason for posting this topic in this forum is that I need as much information as possible regarding what is causing the problem. So I was wondering if you could give your stories about when you toasted your SIDs.
My guess is that it is caused by ESD. Since the C64 design is using a serial resistor connected to a transistor follower design on the audio output it is probably not caused by excessive current so my only theory right now is ESD when connecting the audio. However it is only a theory and I need as much input as possible.
If you have any bedtime horror stories about the time when your SID passed away, then please tell me. I need as much detailed info as possible regarding what you did, which cables were connected, to what, in what order or if you didn't do anything and it was just dead one morning etc.
Looking forward to your stories. |
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taper
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 119 |
Well, every time I've killed a SID, I have been fiddling with the AV-cable one way or another. Last time was at the last LCP in Linköping. Someone had fiddled with my monitor and removed my AV-cable so I had to re-hook my c128 up to it again. Either I was so static that I blew it when I was touching the AV contacts, or I inserted the wrong contact into the wrong place on the monitor (audio where video should be or something). I can't remember, but the SID died anyway...
Then again, we have blown quite a few compo machine SID's at FLOPPY, when the computer has been connected to an amplifier. Not all of them were blown during hook-up, I think we had accidents while turning on/off the amplifier and shit like that too...
Sorry for not being to specific here... but This is a great initiative Mogwai! We really need to protect our precious SID's, they're getting scarce by the minute! |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
could someone plz merge this thread with SID burn protection if at all possible?
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taper
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 119 |
Hmm, yes indeed, merge the threads. I didn't realise there were two of them... :) |
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mogwai
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 5 |
Anybody want to set my SID-protector in production?
This is a VERY long time since I started this thread but the following has happened:
I created a prototype for a SID burn protector directly after I started this thread about 5 years ago.
I gave the prototype to GOTO80 who had a BURN-rate of about 1-5 SIDs per year due to all his public music events.
After that he has not burned one single SID in the machine that has the SID protector.
The problem is that after we had verified the SID burn protector I got swamped with a kid, house, family, work etc.
So the prototype has never gone beyond being a prototype.
Since GOTO80 and others out there really want this SID-protector put into production I am looking for someone one wants and can take over to set it into small production.
I can assist all the way through but I need someone to do the main work creating a PCB layout, BOM and debugging.
Is there anyone out there?
I will be at the BFP party in Helsingborg,Sweden this weekend and if you want to do this and are there we can discuss this. Otherwise just post your interest and we can connect.
/Mogwai |
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dink
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 30 |
Would you post a schematic & parts needed to make this? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1641 |
Personally I would LOVE to see an internal stereo SID interface (with jumpers to select base address -> http://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=14&topicid=99181&firstpostd=99293.. ) that also had this burn protection thing. :) I know that I ask too much, but hey.. one can always wish, right. :)
Plain burn protection is also a very cool and nice thing of course. Everyone should have it! :) |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Awesome thread on a non-awesome phenomenon.
Just a thought and question: would a good quality DI box solve the problem? Inputs outputs are separated there with a transformer cirtuit so virtually there is no amp volt kickback whatsoever, still, I heard that it is not a guarantee. Do you have some info on that?
I'd like to set up a C64 'rig' for live play some time but I don't want to risk burning it at all so for now it seems it will be a laptop based VSTi stuff. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1762 |
I guess a DI-box should give some isolation. I'd rather put an op-amp in the output path aswell.
One thing that I think kills sids is when you feed it directly to a tele-plug and plug/unplug that. Tele-plugs are really nasty in that they short circuit the signal line during the mating operation. |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
Yeah, let's make this SID condom real! As Mogwai said it saved a lot of SIDs for me. It endured all my signature moves like glitchy cables, unplugging audio cables while on, crappy power supplies, plugging into weird sound systems, etc. The SID didn't even break when I removed the cartridge while the C64 was on (intentionally of course, ehmm .. yeah). |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
I thought a bit more on this issue, being solicited by Necropolo. The SID in my opinion is killed by any external event which might induce either electrical charge or potential (problem solved by using a ground loop isolator like audio isolation transformer or optical device) or induced currents. In the home eviroment induced currents are not likely to happen, so a simple ground loop isolator might be enough (as I have experienced).
But for harsh enviroment with lots of high fast changing currents like live on stage (power wires driving speakers, lights and so on) the ground loop solution must be integrated with a RF shield. The problem is that a wires carring high and fast changing currents may induce currents into nearby wires (e.g. audio wires from C64). A solution in my opinion would be to cover the C64 with a Faraday cage grounded in a single point to the ground of the electrical power system of the facility. Here is an example:
http://rf-emi-shielding.com/rf-emi-shielding_installation-guide..
Then of course the audio cable out of the C64 must also have a shield connected to the Faraday cage. And of course still use the ground loop isolator.
Mind that the Faraday cage must be connected to the ground of the power system and not to the 0V voltage reference of the C64, like the inner RF shield is. |
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goto80
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 138 |
btw: David Viens (who made the Plogue Chipsounds) said: "Sure fire way to screw a 6581(filters): have the +12v get in before +5v. I would add a protection for that." |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 509 |
@mogwai
There are some experienced hardware specialists at this Polish forum: http://www.c64power.com/index.php/forum-dyskusyjne , including Kisiel (check his projects) and few others. I posted info about this, if I get anyone willing to support/push on this (much needed :D) design, I will let you know. There are examples that the capability is there (MultiAction, GeoAction carts come to mind). |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
one day my sidchip said CRF#/¤%T&GJDSG, so immediately i removed the psu.
else..
can you really do anything, beside heatsink and good psu ?
you must know mogwai ?
i dont think anything is possible, just take good care of them. |
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Overthink
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2013
Posts: 10 |
Quoting mogwaiAnybody want to set my SID-protector in production?
/Mogwai
Mogwai,
I may have an interested individual who would produce the SID protector - he supplies a lot of excellent C64 hardware, has designed a lot of goodies and has a well known storefront... if you are interested, we need more information, can you PM me? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
why make a mystery about jim brain though? =P |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 509 |
I'm sorry to report that my idea failed, seems that the guys are not interested, a pity really :( |
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Overthink
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2013
Posts: 10 |
Quote: why make a mystery about jim brain though? =P
Sorry and yes, it's Jim Brain I'm talking about, no mysteries intended. I was only trying to vet the idea / gather some preliminary info a little before sending it along :-)
If we can get him a schematic that would be awesome.
So... Mogwai, let us know! Thanks! |
