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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Defining 'World Firsts'
It is obvious what a world first is when it comes to a single effect.
Combining 2 or more effects, does that count as a world first ?
I'd anwser yes. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1882 |
Hm,
if you for the first time ever get an erection and don't cum and later an erection but also cum thats a world first in any case.
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
The classification comes from 'world first FLI', or whatever NEW effect.
But this reasoning makes practically EVERYTHING a 'world first' :)
@C0: ... what?! :) |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
This thread is a world first. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
@Wile Coyote: In my opinion, you are always free to call combination effects "world first". Important thing is, if you combine effects like HCL did at EoD, it has a meaning. If each effect looks awesome alone, then this combination is acceptable for me. But if the demo audience feels the quality loss due to hardware limitations using combined effects, you can still call it a "world first" but noone gives a shit about it except yourself. :) |
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Wile Coyote
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'but noone gives a shit about it except yourself. :)'
@Skate ..and you know that for sure ?
One thing is for sure, 4 people gave a s*** enough to reply ;P |
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Wile Coyote
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The combination of effects to produce a world first at least means theres life left yet on the C64 when it comes to World Firsts
It got me thinking..
There was once a World First when it came to the effect IFLI (I think it was the Samantha Fox IFLI).
I think Krestology was the first demo to feature Sprites over IFLI. I guess the door remains open for Maximum number of Sprties over IFLI. I like sprite records. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
if it is all about "that's the only way to have more world firsts on c64", i say "not at all". world firsts are not only limited by technicial achivements. i have a demo part i'm working on right now. i'm sure at least 50 or more c64 coders are able to code the same part. But they didn't until today and hopefully they won't until i release it. :) And it will be a world first for c64 platform. I'm sure you can find some original ideas as world first "single" effects, too. Just don't get stuck in VIC registers when thinking on a new effect. Make the decision first, than start thinking on how to do it on c64. This method works for me. |
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Wile Coyote
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Posts: 646 |
@Skate I look forward to seeing your world first, providing someone does not beat you to it ;D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:The combination of effects to produce a world first at least means theres life left yet on the C64 when it comes to World Firsts
sounds like cracker groups releasing manky |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
To me it's quite pointless to code something already previously done. Always try to improve the effect => each effect you do is a world's first in some sense (i.e. better resolution, better framerate etc.) Which leads us to a gray zone, when is it a NEW effect and when is it just an improvement, and when would an improvement count as a world's first?
It leads to the conclusion that it's pointless to talk about world's firsts imho. |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Working on my first 'proper' trackloader demo which should include some 'world first gfx modes' however like Jackasser mentioned, there are always improvements to routines and defining each improvement as world firsts would result in a huge list.
If one of my gfx modes result in sprites being placed at specific locations, it would still be similar to a mode such as mucsu. What if i was to utilise some type of spatial color dither, would that be a world first as well?
What about audio decompression? if i was was create a variation of the same routine, but with a more accurate pc encoder resulting in clearer c64 samples.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
imho at least these days every single claim for such world first must come together with a definition of what exactly was done. that also pretty much answers the original question :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
the scene was built on worlds first.
open border, etc. inventing vsp. and so on...
now its all just about design and math ?
im not so sure. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=world_of_de..
This will continue to be expanded. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1641 |
Jackasser is 100% right: It is impossible to identify a strict and sharp boundary between what is new and what is old even though there may be SOME quite clear examples of stuff that is clearly new and stuff that is clearly old. Rather, we will have to rely on common sense, in all its vague glory. Isn't that quite obvious?
Nevertheless, it may still be useful to distinguish, at least informally, between "the first" and "the best version of X" (such as most sprites on screen, or whatever). Basically a distinction between differences in kind and differences in degree. It doesn't seem very meaningful to call feats of the latter kind "the FIRST demo with 999999 sprites on screen", even though it was of course the first time someone managed to do that many sprites. ...so, to repeat myself, the gray zone is still there of course.. |
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Wile Coyote
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Quote: http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=world_of_de..
This will continue to be expanded.
I couldn't see much on the Sid and world firsts.
I thought they may have covered double speed etc.
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
What Jackasser and Frantic said. Also nice overview, Jazzcat. Looking forward to it getting expanded, although such a list will always depend on who writes it, and will undoubtedly be the subject of debate. But I'm on it, so I'm not complaining. :)
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Wile Coyote: Yes, will work on that one soon. My focus has been VIC and GFX so far.
Cruzer: indeed. Well, my site gives sources and definitions. I will try and keep it as clear and distinct as possible (I am not venturing into the grey-land). Debate may arise, but generally the content is well-researched and cross-referenced with quite a few people, I am open to fix mistakes and improve of course.
Now, PM me your facts for the site! :P |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1641 |
...and people are of course encouraged to continue the support for the list on codebase64:
http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:demo_world_records_and_w..
I am not completely sure that I see the benefit of having two lists instead of one. Nevertheless, everyone is of course free to put any information they want on the net, so it is not like I am opposing Jazzcat's initiative or so. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Frantic: it may help us both in someways, refine what is inaccurate or inconsistant. Mine is not just VIC, but also graphic and SID and World of Cracking (first releases). So quite a different spread.
Anyway, as said, support us! |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
It's only good with some competition, and I think both lists have their advatages. I like that the one on Codebase64 has the full history of the records, and that there are screenshots on the Recollection one. I'll try to submit something to both. Maybe it's a good idea with a thread to discuss the gray area cases, if there isn't one already. |
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Quote: This thread is a world first.
And my quote to your reply is a world first. I even modify it with an improvement: "This thread is a world first!" and now that is a world first.
Shit the more I write, the more world first it gets...
qwertyuio aargh world first! |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1641 |
@jazzcat: yeah. some plurality never killed anyone anyway. :) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
The grey areas issue is interesting. I guess describing an effect or combination of effects would help clarify weather or not the effect is a world first. The same as patenting an idea.
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5076 |
Quote: What Jackasser and Frantic said. Also nice overview, Jazzcat. Looking forward to it getting expanded, although such a list will always depend on who writes it, and will undoubtedly be the subject of debate. But I'm on it, so I'm not complaining. :)
strongly disagree. there were and will be cases for clearly new effects, like fli, fpp, dawnfall x rotator, etc. also ANYthing can lead to a gray zone. what is a gfx ? is a petscii logo a gfx? something made out of chars? yay its a gray zone! lets throw away the word gfx! you see my point... |
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Wile Coyote
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Quote: strongly disagree. there were and will be cases for clearly new effects, like fli, fpp, dawnfall x rotator, etc. also ANYthing can lead to a gray zone. what is a gfx ? is a petscii logo a gfx? something made out of chars? yay its a gray zone! lets throw away the word gfx! you see my point...
I'd say a petscii logo qualifies as gfx. Pixels, all be them petscii arranged, are arranged to form images. mages are gfx :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
in coders terms it would be clearly "charset" =) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
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Posts: 646 |
Graphics [ˈgræfɪks]
(Electronics & Computer Science / Computer Science) (functioning as plural) the information displayed on a visual display unit or on a computer printout in the form of diagrams, graphs, pictures, and symbols |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
you can keep your textbook definition for yourself when it comes to defining c64 demoscene related terms really :o)
and coming back to the original topic, it is actually important to define things in terms of c64 world - ie the definition must say how things are achived, not how the outcome looks, thats secondary and not very useful to define anything. eg the definition of "fld" must contain a technical description of how it works - because scrolling down a screen can be achived by other means too. and as for graphics, its either charset or bitmap, because the mode is what counts and not what you display with it. |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Interesting thread!
Having released the Independent Line Manipulator long ago (at MS97) which delivers a gfx routine including the special feature of MRFLI it makes me wonder if a pure routine presented only in a tool suffices to compete for something like "world first gfx mode".
I do not mean to offend Algorithm and his achivement with MRFLI in any way (I really love the MRFLI-releases I've seen up to now!), I'm just curious about what counts as a "real release for world firsts" and what not.
I guess it heavily depends on the content; our tool did not have any gfx so no one could really judge the gfx routine. Completely our fault :(
What do you think? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
ILM technically doesnt really offer anything new over FLI though, and similar stuff was done long before (without even mentioning it). so who cares =) its somewhat similar to Mongobong ... ifli plus samples was (to my knowledge) not done before. however ordinary fli was, back in the 90s already. so who gives a damn :) |
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Wile Coyote
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Quote: Interesting thread!
Having released the Independent Line Manipulator long ago (at MS97) which delivers a gfx routine including the special feature of MRFLI it makes me wonder if a pure routine presented only in a tool suffices to compete for something like "world first gfx mode".
I do not mean to offend Algorithm and his achivement with MRFLI in any way (I really love the MRFLI-releases I've seen up to now!), I'm just curious about what counts as a "real release for world firsts" and what not.
I guess it heavily depends on the content; our tool did not have any gfx so no one could really judge the gfx routine. Completely our fault :(
What do you think?
'charset or bitmap'
How would you best describe the graphics during Krestage that show: 2 vertcial lower border scrollers.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
its called "sprites" |
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Wile Coyote
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Posts: 646 |
Quote: you can keep your textbook definition for yourself when it comes to defining c64 demoscene related terms really :o)
and coming back to the original topic, it is actually important to define things in terms of c64 world - ie the definition must say how things are achived, not how the outcome looks, thats secondary and not very useful to define anything. eg the definition of "fld" must contain a technical description of how it works - because scrolling down a screen can be achived by other means too. and as for graphics, its either charset or bitmap, because the mode is what counts and not what you display with it.
'charset or bitmap'
How would you best describe the graphics during Krestage that show: 2 vertcial lower border scrollers.
EDIT: I quoted the wrong person in my previous post. An edit option would be hlepful at times like these. |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Quote: ILM technically doesnt really offer anything new over FLI though, and similar stuff was done long before (without even mentioning it). so who cares =) its somewhat similar to Mongobong ... ifli plus samples was (to my knowledge) not done before. however ordinary fli was, back in the 90s already. so who gives a damn :)
Hmm...
Compared to IFLI ILM does offer smth new: amongst other things there's a write access to $d016 on every rasline. Ofcourse it is still based on FLI but with this point of view I'd say _every_ new gfx mode that was "invented" after FLI is nothing new.
It just got me thinking why MRFLI was on Jazzcat's list (category "World fist - Graphic") while ILM was not. The gfx routine for MRFLI has even less features than ILM (no Background colour change, no $d800-interlace, no y-offset). It's just that nobody really "sees" these ILM features.
Concerning Mongobong: for me this one should also count as a "world first" because samples and FLI was not done before and it was a certain technical challenge to get it done. This Mongobong-example seems to fit quite well to WEC's initial question: does a combination of fx count as "world first" if not done before?
My question goes into a slightly different direction: where is the line between "pure code" and "visibility" for competing as "world first" (or even stricter: for being a proper release)? |
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Wile Coyote
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Posts: 646 |
@Copyfault samples and FLI was not done before
I think you put into words what I was thinking. More than a single effect, and not a grey area. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:Compared to IFLI ILM does offer smth new: amongst other things there's a write access to $d016 on every rasline. Ofcourse it is still based on FLI but with this point of view I'd say _every_ new gfx mode that was "invented" after FLI is nothing new.
- (i)fli routines that write to dd00 and d016 every line existed long before ilm
- and yes i agree, most of these "graphic modes" are nothing new afterall. to me after fli the only noteable one is shfli, because of how the sprite layer is done.
Quote:Concerning Mongobong: for me this one should also count as a "world first" because samples and FLI was not done before and it was a certain technical challenge to get it done.
read again :) mongobong contains _i_fli with samples. but ordinary fli with samples was done many years before that. and i dont consider adding lda $dd00 eor #2 sta $dd00 a technical challenge =) |
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Clarence
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 120 |
My opinion...
Invented fx are distinctive/original, and could be called firsts on c64 (I would rather leave the word 'world' out of it).
Improved fx in any sense (like combination of two interfering effect, improving previous technique, quantity records without losing framerate, etc.) are simply new.
In either case you have to have the lexical AND decent coding knowledge to be sure what you are stating. :)
"ordinary fli with samples was done many years before that"
Yep, example:
Justincase |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
FLI with Digi seems to have been done before this with the below release from censor
1 Year in Wonderland
Regarding MRFLI. Its similar to other FLI based gfx modes in that it generates a badline per line. A first release would really be when the gfx is first demonstrated. utilising the features.
For example with the invention of FLI (by Solomon / Beyond force?_ this was merely demonstrated as some amiga copper effects but realised and demonstrated into a gfx mode in Blackmails Dutch Breeze.
What if i was to have a routine with badlines per rasterline or/and plough gfx registers with values and create an editor which allows pixels to be plotted and parameters to be changed, would this be classed as a new gfx mode without anything to actually demonstrate it?
In regards to progress in C64 gfx modes, it has reached the stage where the potential (hardware wise) has been reached. The next stage to improve the quality would be the dither or/and mix color techniques used.
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
I agree with Algorithm on that one, it has to be demonstrated in my view.
Which brings me to my current research. Interlace Painter V1.0 appears to be the earliest sign of Interlace on the C64 (1987), but I did not see any use of that editor until a pic was released together with a newer revision of the editor on the Magic Disk (06/1990). |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Samples with sideborder-sprites was already done by Upfront in Mixer (1989). Probably basically the same idea as with FLI, although you probably have less cycles per rasterline in FLI.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
sideborder sprites is harder though, since with fli you can be pretty sloppy with timing :)
didnt XAKK do it all before in Micro Sleep ? :) HALLO! YOU GOTTA DO THIS! =D |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Quoting GroepazQuote:Compared to IFLI ILM does offer smth new: amongst other things there's a write access to $d016 on every rasline. Ofcourse it is still based on FLI but with this point of view I'd say _every_ new gfx mode that was "invented" after FLI is nothing new.
- (i)fli routines that write to dd00 and d016 every line existed long before ilm
- and yes i agree, most of these "graphic modes" are nothing new afterall. to me after fli the only noteable one is shfli, because of how the sprite layer is done.
Ok, I really didn't know that there were IFLI-routines with $d021 AND $D016 writes every line. Do you have an example?
Quoting GroepazQuote:Concerning Mongobong: for me this one should also count as a "world first" because samples and FLI was not done before and it was a certain technical challenge to get it done.
read again :) mongobong contains _i_fli with samples. but ordinary fli with samples was done many years before that. and i dont consider adding lda $dd00 eor #2 sta $dd00 a technical challenge =)
Oops, I have to admit I didn't read this little detail :/
But while improving "samples with FLI" to "samples with IFLI" might not be too difficult there definately ARE technical challenges when trying to improve some fx with FLI to IFLI (UIFLImax springs to mind, up to now still not done!) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
Quote:Ok, I really didn't know that there were IFLI-routines with $d021 AND $D016 writes every line. Do you have an example?
dont recall any specific demo. i remember hcl did it a few times, but that was long after i first heard about the idea :)
(and btw its pointless to speak of ifli routines seperately from fli. its the same. really =)) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quote: sideborder sprites is harder though, since with fli you can be pretty sloppy with timing :)
didnt XAKK do it all before in Micro Sleep ? :) HALLO! YOU GOTTA DO THIS! =D
They sure did. Hadn't even seen that one before. Always nice to discover new oldskool classics. |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Quoting Groepaz[...]
(and btw its pointless to speak of ifli routines seperately from fli. its the same. really =))
Yes and no! Concerning this FLI plus $d016 thing you're definately right, but there ARE effects or even "gfx modes" utilizing FLI that cannot be interlaced that easily. For example, try to make an interlace version of Ninja's 6 Sprites over FLI and you know what I mean ;) |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Quoting algorithm[...]
Regarding MRFLI. Its similar to other FLI based gfx modes in that it generates a badline per line. A first release would really be when the gfx is first demonstrated. utilising the features.
For example with the invention of FLI (by Solomon / Beyond force?_ this was merely demonstrated as some amiga copper effects but realised and demonstrated into a gfx mode in Blackmails Dutch Breeze.
I have to agree that a gfx mode has to be demonstrated. What sense does a gfx mode without an example pic make anyway?
Until now I thought that at least the underlying routine was not done before the release date, but this is obviously not the case.
After all it's always good to have a tool for the real machine.
Quoting algorithm[...]
In regards to progress in C64 gfx modes, it has reached the stage where the potential (hardware wise) has been reached. The next stage to improve the quality would be the dither or/and mix color techniques used.
What do you mean by 'hardware wise'? For me there are two layers: the low level layer dealing with the gfx-routine running on C64 and the meta layer dealing with clever conversion algorithms. Almost every gfx mode comes with a special routine on C64 side, and many of the later gfx modes come with both a new gfx routine and an improved conversion algorithm.
Having NU(I)FLI in mind or the still to be done UIFLImax I'd rather say that on the low level side the limit has not been reached yet. I'm sure this holds true also for some of your still-to-come gfx modes.
Which brings me back to my actual question: does pure code count as a worthy release? |
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RaMoS
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 37 |
When scroll appeared in demos?
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
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Posts: 646 |
I have seen horizontal FLI scroll, but not horizontal IFLI scroll.
I guess IFLI would be as easy as FLI, if what Groepaz says is correct. Not that FLI scroll is easy, as it is seen rarely. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11293 |
as copyfault hinted, whether interlacing something is easy (and the matter of toggling videobanks) depends on the memory usage of the respective gfx mode. it *is* quite trivial for most of them though :) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: as copyfault hinted, whether interlacing something is easy (and the matter of toggling videobanks) depends on the memory usage of the respective gfx mode. it *is* quite trivial for most of them though :)
I guess theres a (world) first right there, waiting to be claimed. Just needs someone with FLI and memory usage skills :D |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
When i meant 'hardware' wise, i was referring to display quality. not size. ofcourse new gfx modes can be greated which can either increase the size of the visible display (eg my MUCSU-FLI) or to reduce the cpu time required for maintaining the display at high quality (MCIHD - not released yet)
At the time of writing, the ultimate display quality on a hardware point would be MUCSU-IFLI or HUCSU-IFLI allowing Hires FLI per line with multicolor sprite underlay.
To further improve the quality, this would need to be done via the conversion/dither routine
IFLI variations etc are trivial c64 code-wise but would generate a massive headache for a converter when it takes into account pal blending/color mixing / luma overload and as mentioned previously takes up a lot of the c64's ram |
