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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

... 209 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2005-04-15 00:48

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Hoild:
Unfortunately you are missing the point here.

"MacGyver contacted those downvoting him, and inquired about their reasons. Perhaps to improve, by listening to their feedback - only he could tell His reasons, but would he, surrounded by this extreme ragging?"

There is no excuse for this, it is a blatant misuse of administration control and should not be allowed! He doesn't need to offer any excuses as none would be accepted.

"All the "crackerz" -- why do you want to piss us, hobby game developers?"

Again, do we have to discuss the philosophy of cracking? This is an age-old topic that has been discussed many times before. If you haven't learnt about it by now I suggest you do some more reading about it. It is no personal attack at developing groups, it is more a group respects the game at some level and honours it in the tradition that they are part of (the cracking scene). It doesn't harm the sales of the game in 2005, serious people will still purchase the game (like myself) regardless if there is a crack. Anyway, this has been discussed to death and your covering very old ground. Please get back to the original point here.

"-How about expanding this "us" for all of us?"

We want to expand, but MacGyver only wants what he wants with the PTV games, as I've said before, surely ORIGINALS, IDE-fixes AND cracks can co-exist in this database.
Again, ICE GUYS = he deleted the SCS&TRC crack but left the Singular version online (IDE-fix). They should co-exist!!

2005-04-15 07:19

Steppe

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510

I'm glad this discussion has come to a rather reasonable level now, in opposition to the blind witchhunting it started out on. Let me add my few cents, now that I have taken off my flamesuit:
I know MacGyver for quite a long time now, even got to know him personally. He's a damn nice guy and an everbusy squirrel behind the curtains. Not only here on CSDb, but he also pointed out a lot of shortcomings in the HVSC or on the Demodungeon.
But as much as I like and respect you, Milo, you've put your foot in it here. Some honest words from you couldn't hurt to relax this miserable situation.

2005-04-15 09:11

Trash

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122

The downvoting problem and users who abuse their rights (as superusers) is a simple one to solve for the staff, just remove the possibility to see secret votes on the superuser in question...

The other problem is a bit harder to solve, but removing the links shouldn't be a problem for anyone (I guess) but removing the entire entry is just plain stupid, the same on user-level, removing real name, email, date of birth and so on shouldn't be a problem but removing the entire entry will do nothing more than cripple the real facts of the scene and it's complex structure, imagine a CSDB without trivia such as Pernod and Jackasser are brothers or that Hz had members as Sir Gawain and Rush...

2005-04-15 15:09

Crossfire
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221

Nope Count0 I willfully admit I got bored out of my mind and stopped reading

2005-04-16 00:46

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Crossfire: of course you would. My retired grandfather finds most things boring also. :)

2005-04-16 03:06

Crossfire
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221

Ha!....is all I can say before going back to my rocking chair ;-)....err, David - I believe you and I are about the same age, aren't we?

2005-04-16 08:18

macx

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 252

@xfire: as you already know, age is all about attitude and naivety. heck, last time i checked david was younger than me. :)

*child prodigy*

2005-04-16 08:29

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Yes. I'm still finishing school and coming home to the C64 with no worries and heaps of fun!!! Damn, time to go to newsagent and get the latest Commodorezine with cover tape!

2005-04-16 09:39

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036

I said I won't be posting here, but I think I should.

I lost c64.sk maintainer. One who did most of the work at c64.sk. This database lost maintainer. Dmagic has minus 1 member, who instead of making himself -ex made himself erased which is weird. Also MacGyver (?) has unlocked his entry, so children can play with it. I wouldn't reccomend it though.

Back to topic. I can see that some points are justified. Either both Ice Guys cracks should be removed. Or TRC+SCS should have 1997 crack in database together with Singular. At least that would look okay to most of the sceners. In my view, there is visible and fruitful cooperation between Soci/Singular and PTV so this is not just crack, but more a patch. But anyway, Mac should have discussed his actions with either the creators of the entries, or with Perff. I'm sure their reactions wouldn't be positive, but at least they wouldn't have this argument in their hands.

As far as the rest is concerned, I preffer authors and I think their demands should be respected. So if they don't want to have links to cracks of the games, created by them, in this database, don't add them. Spread the releases other way. (I don't mean c64.sk ;-)

Arguments about cracking past and support of cracked games are just silly, so I won't go deeper into that problematic. Throwing stones became very popular in this scene, it seem.

So here we are, with a precedent of crackers publicly demanding their rights. In the end I don't see a plain winner of this case, only the expenses. Just another example of scene eating it's own tail. I can't do anything about it, just try to respect few respectable persons, even when I disagree with them in this case, laugh at few - for various reasons.., and be disguested by one.

case closed (at least for me)

Roman

2005-04-16 09:57

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Hmmm a bit melodramatic of him to quit all these things. The simple requests here was that when it comes to something he should of adjusted the way he did them (or discontinued in the case of reading anonymous votes). No need for him to be a whinging little wanker and pack his bags and go home. I'm sure loads of people appreciate things he does. He should take the critic on the chin and move on.

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