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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

... 209 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2005-04-26 00:11

Crossfire
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221

Quote: Maybe you have 3 groups after your handle for nostalgic reasons. You maybe visit these forums for nostalgic reasons. But this site wasn't made for nostalgic reasons. And although I disagree with some points, I believe Jazzcat's project won't be made for nostalgic reasons.

Retro gamers, remixers, most of c.s.c. newsgroups users and "power" users, lemon64.com forum users and visitors, game remakers and maybe even major party organisers who still keep C64 compos, can be considered nostalgiac, but the fact that those people are in majority doesn't automatically mean that driving forces of active and creative sceners belong to the same cathegory.

I of course use new technologies in my everyday life, but if I feel like it, I still enjoy composing on C64, watch demos, and even play games once in a very long while. And of course people around this machine are (ahem) cool.

Right, CreaMD - what is your point exactly? It must be important since you also mail me your response?....all you do is apparently disagreeing with me but the points you put out are the same I did...if you don't have anything to say, then don't feel obligated, ok?

Not that I really care, honestly. I'm here because I think it's fun and for purely nostalgic reasons. I have three groups in my handle cause those are some of my ex-groups, do you see me calling myself active under any of them, maybe? In fact, if you had bothered keeping up to date you would know that I've said a thousand times that I wasn't going to be active, eventhough a lot of people tried to get me started again, but I fail to see the reason when I have so many others things to do these days, workwise, private life, etc. etc.

2005-04-26 01:41

Duke
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 20

I like to think that the c64 has a great role to play in today's technological wonder world. To me, the c64 is a response to all the brand new technology that comes crashing through our doors each and every day. Sure, technology helps us in life, and sure a lot of it brings us good fun ... but the c64 is about so much more than that. It never changes!

Sure, you can buy the Retro Replay cartridge and feel as if you have upgraded the c64, but in reality it's still the same, and the demos and games are still subject to the same limitations as they were 20 years ago. THAT is what is unique about the c64. That, and of course the fact that we all grew up with it. How can you just ditch something that was such a big part of your youth? Think of all the memories we all share from this wonderful computer and scene. When I watch a demo or play a c64 game, it's like taking a sip of the best damn beer this world has to offer. Sure, champaigne is probably more refined, and wine and brandy more sophisticated, but ... erhm.. sorry, I just started a rant here.. Hope the point got through, though ;)

2005-04-26 04:36

Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896

Quote: Evolution? Future? C64? Ehrm, come on, you cannot be serious.. If you want evolution and future you should seek other machinery, the only sensible reason for being active on C64 must be for nostalgic reasons...

Do we have to go through another thread with this shit? Someone coming from nowhere, dusting off their brain, and posting that the "scene is dead" or that the only "reasonable reason" to be active is nostalgia? Take your judgments and shove them up your ass.

2005-04-26 08:07

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036

Quote: Right, CreaMD - what is your point exactly? It must be important since you also mail me your response?....all you do is apparently disagreeing with me but the points you put out are the same I did...if you don't have anything to say, then don't feel obligated, ok?

Not that I really care, honestly. I'm here because I think it's fun and for purely nostalgic reasons. I have three groups in my handle cause those are some of my ex-groups, do you see me calling myself active under any of them, maybe? In fact, if you had bothered keeping up to date you would know that I've said a thousand times that I wasn't going to be active, eventhough a lot of people tried to get me started again, but I fail to see the reason when I have so many others things to do these days, workwise, private life, etc. etc.

Seems like you didn't read my post very carefully. I actually presented the arguments that active (creative) sceners aren't nostalgiacs. Everybody has his individual motivations and in my or Jazzcat's case I'm quite sure that it's not nostalgia. Concerning the fact that we are both trying to positively influence the scene (our own way ;-).

As far as the rest of your message is concerned, telling me that you don't care is not argument helping you to persuade me about your knowledge about todays scene. But that's situation we already have been months ago.. and IMO we don't need to go there again. I also don't have so much time these days, workwise, private life, and even etc.

2005-04-26 08:21

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Bah.

The scene is what you make it to be.

For me I doing things for the new generation as well as for nostalgic reasons, the result is I get some enjoyment out of it. No doubt the "reason" differs for others. But who are we to judge what other people are here for?

Let "warez" do the talking.

2005-04-26 10:22

Radiant

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639

I guess I must be a newcomer to the C64 scene for nostalgic reasons, then. Or, perhaps, I really am not sensible. :-P

2005-04-26 15:39

Crossfire
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 221

Quote: Do we have to go through another thread with this shit? Someone coming from nowhere, dusting off their brain, and posting that the "scene is dead" or that the only "reasonable reason" to be active is nostalgia? Take your judgments and shove them up your ass.

What a disappointing post from you Moloch, I truly expected more from you.. "Coming out of nowhere" you say? Hmm, yes - sure, I'm a newcomer...funny though, could have sworn I was active for the C64 scene for well about 14 years of my past, but hell, maybe I was just drunk? If you had bothered to take your head out of your ass you would see I NEVER said the scene was dead - so stop being so biased...it's truly disappointing, dude!

CreaMD, whatever you say, dude. I can't be bothered to enter another discussion with you since you obviously already think you know all there is to know. The fact alone that you care so much what an ex-scener think anyway is pretty interesting. Why does that mean so much to you? I mean, I'm not active, so what does it matter? Perhaps you're just trying to convince yourself when it comes down to it?

Furthermore I never claimed to know anything about the new scene!! Why should I when I'm not apart of it? I'm not passing judgments but it seems you guys have been seing to many other people passing judgments so now anyone who just SEEMS remotely "against" the new scene is an enemy? Honestly, stop whining...how many times have I said I applaud the efforts of the 2005-C64 scene? MANY! Although they seem to go by quite unheard, but as soon as something that can be misinterpreted in any way is written, you are ready for a fight? Honestly, GROW UP!

But you do not keep the scene alive for nostalgic reason, explain why to me? Fame? - Get real! Fun? I can understand that - but for the old sceners there would be no fun if it was not nostalgicly related - that's what makes it fun, because you have a HISTORY with the machine.. What is so hard to understand about that?

2005-04-26 16:44

Moloch

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2896

Excellent.

"Coming out of nowhere" as in a greasy old shit rag returning and spouting crap he doesn't know about or making absurd judgments about others and their hobby.

Please read my comments again... I never said that you claimed the scene was dead, but others have recently here on CSDb. If you had kept up you'd know this.

It's quite obvious from your postings that you seem to misunderstand or somehow dream up different meanings for what people write.

2005-04-26 18:12

Duke
Account closed

Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 20

You know, I had a thought the other day. I remember 10 years ago people said the scene was dead. They've been saying it pretty well daily ever since. It would be fun to put together a list of released demos, games, cracks, compilations of music, graphics and such, all between 1995 till now, and then show it to whoever doubts whether there still is a pulse to the c64.

Regarding Crossfire, I think people tend to misunderstand him, too. I know Crossfire REALLY well, and he is as much as scener as anybody else I know. He worked his heart out for The Pulse back in the mid 90's, produced some 20+ issues with me, and often without deserved credits. A lot of people worked of The Pulse, but no one but more work into it than him and me. It was our production! Now if that isn't scene spirit I don't know what is. There isn't anything more scene friendly than the c64 magazines. So while there might be disagreements about a lot of things, I do think Crossfire deserves a lot of respect for putting together one of the best mags ever in the scene. The charts during the time spells the truth!

2005-04-26 20:55

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3036

Imagine you are walking down the street seeing beautiful sexy woman. Long legs, high heels, and tight (excuse moi) ass in skirt just so short that it hides her pants. Beatiful hair (of your favourite colour, length and shape).. etc. etc. you know the idea.. you are walking faster than her, so in fem moments she is behind you, so if you look behind (carefuly) you can see her face. Sometimes it happens that it's a disappointing experience. And you maybe think, only if I haven't looked behind.. the illusion would stay perfect, forever. And that's how it is with some ex-sceners. Not many of them. I met only few in my life. They would maybe maintain their well deserved respect and appreciaton forever, only if they didn't "open their mouth"...

Of course, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't keep my mouth closed in some situations.

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