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fadiga
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Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
lemon 64
hey guys - ive been checking out old c64 stuff on the net and i dont know if you realised there is another website called lemon 64 quite similar to this one. its miles better than this site, much more info on it and better discussions. you should try it out if you have never been there. its www.lemon64.com i cant imagine there are many people who actually use this once they have discovered lemon64 |
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Blackspawn
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Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 11 |
Quote: ok thats cool - i was not aware that there was such a strong allegience to this particular site - i just assumed that people were looking from a nostalgic point of view. in that sense, lemon appears to be the 'better' choice at first glance. i guess everyone is into different things. dont get me wrong, im a massive c64 fan, but really from a games playing point of view - i dont think this is a bad thing? the term 'demo' must have changed greatly from what i remember to be a demo form old c64/amiga days. this might sound like a stupid question, but what can you actually 'do' with a demo?
You can watch it. You can enjoy it. You can hate it. You can go like "oh boy, that's so cooool! =8-O" or more like "waht teh heck si tah shit tehre on my screeen?". A demo can send shivers down your spine or bore you to death. A demo is entertainment. A demo is art. |
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Blackspawn
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Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 11 |
Oh and fadiga, yes, it WAS a stupid question! :p |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: You can watch it. You can enjoy it. You can hate it. You can go like "oh boy, that's so cooool! =8-O" or more like "waht teh heck si tah shit tehre on my screeen?". A demo can send shivers down your spine or bore you to death. A demo is entertainment. A demo is art.
well doesnt that still boil down to the fact that demos are for watching and games are for playing? i mean you could have a demo playing but all you are actually doing is sitting there watching it? with a game, you are actually involved. would this be a realistic comparision - you could watch a video of your favourite football team playing (quite good fun at first, but after a few times it gets boring becuase you know what will happen as you've seen it before) or you could actually go out and play football (you are invloved, part of the game and can influence what happens?
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
Can we please have some sort of quiz when you want to join up to csdb please.. i mean what the fuck..
Something like TSM stands for.. or JCH wrote ... tune |
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fade
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Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
something to seperate the sceners from the plebians |
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T.M.R
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Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
The scene is about competition and interaction as well, not just player against game AI which is normally just about learning patterns or responses but having to get some way into the mind of the demo's makers and even "duelling" between coders. For example, if Coder A comes up with an effect that Coder B looks at and says "how'd he do *that?!*" then Coder B will either theorise their own technique or delve through the code with a monitor to see what's actually happen and then attempt to top what Coder A has done.
Similarly, graphics artists can look at each others' work and wonder how they managed to do what they did with the finite resources available or they can even try to force those resources into doing something new and previously unseen. Musicians can try to out-do each other with the complexity of the tune, cleaner and better sampled sounds or previously undiscovered uses for obscure SID features.
That's why the games borrow so many ideas and techniques from demo code, although demo code isn't always suitable for the job a lot of routines like upper and lower borders, VSP or even linecrunching were "cutting edge" and did stuff that gamers had never seen either; look at Mayhem In Monsterland's VSP scroll or the Fred's Back series with their multi-directional fast bitmap scrolling, the former *might* be possible with traditional routines but not with that game logic and the latter is impossible without the tricks it uses.
i'm not saying that being into demos is better or worse than playing games because it's totally different and it's possible to be into both. It's just that appreciating demos takes a little more knowledge of the machine and time to get into as well since you need to know *why* doing fifteen ORA'd mega DYCPs is cool or how hard removing the sideborders can be if you want the sprites at different heights... |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: Can we please have some sort of quiz when you want to join up to csdb please.. i mean what the fuck..
Something like TSM stands for.. or JCH wrote ... tune
Nah, i can barely remember what "T.M.R" stands for some mornings...! |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Then it's up to the individual to decide. I for one don't play many games, modern games imho mostly suck, I'll have a blast on MAME every now and again and sometimes spend a few hours on other emulators (c64,amiga etc) BUT I'll download the latest c64 demo and sit and watch it and enjoy it, then go back to old ones and watch/listen to those.
I think people who've been involved in demos are more likely too feel this way because we've been (or are still) part of the process, I've also been a games coder for the past ~15 years and knowing how both situations work (demos and games) is what's poisoned me to modern games. c64 demos are a group of guys (and girls sometimes) who code/draw/compose for fun, recognition and the enjoyment of others. Game coders get money for it and quite a lot of the time don't care what people think of what they're working on.
People who've never been part of the "scene" don't have the appretiation (or not as much) for what is involved and therefore look at demos from the point of view of "well, it kinda looks ok and it's doing some stuff on the screen, but I can't do anything. I've got this game though and I can blow away thousands of monsters or drive my car real fast"
The same goes for the "watch a video of your favourite football team" analogy. Football can be exciting at times, most of the time it's a bunch of blokes kicking a ball around and not much else for a LONG time ;) We've all played football and the fact that if you get bored of watching that video you can go outside and have a kick around is what gives you the link to watching professionals play and gives you an avenue into becoming part of it. Watch a c64 demo, get bored of it and if you can't code/draw/compose music, what are you going to do? Nothing. Games give you that "in" you become involved without having to have any technical skills.
(disclaimer, this probably makes no sense, just typing my thoughts on the subject as there seems to have been a lot of debate on the whole "scene" issue recently) :) |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: something to seperate the sceners from the plebians
good one - i bet you're popular on this forum |
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fadiga
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 23 |
Quote: Then it's up to the individual to decide. I for one don't play many games, modern games imho mostly suck, I'll have a blast on MAME every now and again and sometimes spend a few hours on other emulators (c64,amiga etc) BUT I'll download the latest c64 demo and sit and watch it and enjoy it, then go back to old ones and watch/listen to those.
I think people who've been involved in demos are more likely too feel this way because we've been (or are still) part of the process, I've also been a games coder for the past ~15 years and knowing how both situations work (demos and games) is what's poisoned me to modern games. c64 demos are a group of guys (and girls sometimes) who code/draw/compose for fun, recognition and the enjoyment of others. Game coders get money for it and quite a lot of the time don't care what people think of what they're working on.
People who've never been part of the "scene" don't have the appretiation (or not as much) for what is involved and therefore look at demos from the point of view of "well, it kinda looks ok and it's doing some stuff on the screen, but I can't do anything. I've got this game though and I can blow away thousands of monsters or drive my car real fast"
The same goes for the "watch a video of your favourite football team" analogy. Football can be exciting at times, most of the time it's a bunch of blokes kicking a ball around and not much else for a LONG time ;) We've all played football and the fact that if you get bored of watching that video you can go outside and have a kick around is what gives you the link to watching professionals play and gives you an avenue into becoming part of it. Watch a c64 demo, get bored of it and if you can't code/draw/compose music, what are you going to do? Nothing. Games give you that "in" you become involved without having to have any technical skills.
(disclaimer, this probably makes no sense, just typing my thoughts on the subject as there seems to have been a lot of debate on the whole "scene" issue recently) :)
thats a good post, and as im sure its quite obvious im not a coder or really into the demo scene. but i do have an open mind and all im saying is (unless you are actually making the demos) i cant imagine just sitting in a chair watching a screen is that entertaining - past about 10 minuted. with a game (a good one - there are plenty of sh*t ones) you become involved - ie you have control of something within the game. i view this like comparing an art gallery to an amusement arcade - both are fun, but one you are a passive viewer of pictures/art etc.. and the other you are actually taking part in something.
surely once you have seena demo a few times, thats it - its the same every time. with a game there is a random element and some SKILL involved. thats the difference. obviously it takes a great deal of skill to code either a game, or a demo. butafter its been made, a game still requires skill to play - a demo doesnt.
fair point? |
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