| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Some cartridge questions, help wanted.
The recent discussion about the upcoming Super Snapshot-cart reinstated my interest in my own meddling around with C-64 carts. There's pretty good documentation concerning the software parts of these games, but less on how the actual hardware logic works, and the kinds of roms used.
Last spring I did some research myself, and with the help from some friendly folks at #C-64 i've been able to deduct even more. I know this is fringe material, though I realll would appreciate some help with info and/or scans on this matter. What i've deducted so far is:
OCEAN
From what i've seen so far, all of these use a combination of a 74LS273 (Octal D-Type Flip-Flop) and a 74LS02 (2-Input NOR-Function Logic Gate) for the logic. What might be interesting to know is that the 28-pin roms which Ocean uses are identical to the NES-PRG roms, used in NES-carts. Scans of boards and pinouts for the roms are available if anyone is interested.
DOMARK
I haven't disassembled this one myself, Sack/Cosine did. I've been told that it uses a 74LS174 (Hex/Quad D-Type Flip-Flops with Clear) for the logic and that the rom should be a straight forward standard-pin rom.
PROPHET-64
This one uses a 74LS174 (Hex/Quad D-Type Flip-Flops with Clear). It is possible that it even is based on the Domark solution. Can't tell since I haven't seen a scan or photo of a Domark cart. The rom itself is a straight forward AT27C020, 2 mbit eprom.
I would need information about the IC's and/or scan of the internals of the following game cartridges, if available:
* SYSTEM 3 (Any - Myth, Last Ninja Remix, C64GS cart)
* DINAMIC (Any - After the War, Satan, Aspar GP, etc.)
* SILVERROCK (Any - Hugo, Guldkornexpressen, etc.)
* FUNPLAY (Any - Funplay, Powerplay)
* SUPERGAMES (Supergames).
Thanks in advance. |
|
| |
Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Ocean made their own development system, which was compatible with the GS. A lot of it is based on the Freeload loading system by Paul Hughes, paging in extra data (for example, more types of enemy in the Ocean version of Double Dragon, look-up tables for calculations in Battle Command) |
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I knew Paul Hughes was behind most of the development of the boards and the adaptions to the cart medium. I still haven't asked him about the unreleased cart-game, Plotting.
Whatever the case is, I firmly believe that Paul Hughes had way too much time to spend on the carts. Why? Because i've looked at the boards of 4 different carts, all use different boards wielding the same components. To be honest, you can swap any of the 128k roms between the boards and notice no difference whatsoever. One design for each board were completely unnecessary, yet it was done.
The only board which really differed so far was Chase HQ 2, which don't use an ordinary 28-32 pin dip, but an epoxy covered, minimal, bulb - just like in the DTV or newer NES clones. Must have been really hi-tech back then.
This reminds me - besides the above mentioned carts, i'd also like to have scans of the following:
* Batman, Pang, Toki, Double Dragon (yeah, sure), Spacegun and Robocop III (all 128k games)
* Robocop II, Shadow of the Beast (256k games) |
| |
Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Twoflower: Is it easy to open those Ocean carts? I don't want to end with a damage cartridge.
I have those carts:
System 3: Myth, Last Ninja Remix and the C64GS cart.
Silverrock: Kalaspuffsexpressen (Swedish version of Guldkornsexpressen)
Funplay: Fun Play, Power Play
Supergames: If it's the one from Commodore
Ocean: Batman, Pang, Toki, Robocop III, Robocop II, Shadow of the Beast.
So if you have some idea to open them saftely, I can take some pictures of them all. Well, I have more carts too, like Cyberball from Domark and some other...
-thomas |
| |
Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
"I firmly believe that Paul Hughes had way too much time to spend on the carts"
Well you seems to have too much time to spend aswell :)
|
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Is there a .crt of Kalaspuffsexpressen / Guldkornsexpressen available or is dumping it another task for Sledge? =) |
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Well, none of the Silverrock carts seems to have been dumped so far - save for the time when they once were cracked, back in the nineties. I haven't seen any documentation on the bankswitching of these little wonders. Some of the danish fellows (ex. X-Factor, Dominators or perhaps even Mason) should know how. But then we have problem two - a modified C64 is needed, unless Sledge feels like doing some good old hotswapping.
Sledge:
Opening an Ocean-cart is quite easy. A normal star-screw is located under the sticker (which can be carefully de-folded). After the screw is removed, some of the usual umpa-umpa can be applied on the cart. If you feel like concentrating on one or two of the above mentioned, please try the heaviest (!) of either Shadow of the Beast or Robocop II.
I haven't seen a System 3 cart in ages, so I have no idea how to open those. The Supergames should be fitted with a central screw on the backside. Same with the Cyberball cart (which i'm also interested in a scan of). How to open the other ones, i've got no idea of.
Oh, and it seems that it wasn't Paul Hughes having to much time devoted to the 64GS titles. Paulie just made the software modifications and loaders. It was Dave Collier who did all the hardware design. :-) |
| |
Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Hollowman,
How do make a dump of a cart then? I need some program to do it I guess? I also have one of those cartridge expanders if that will help me without hot swapping?
|
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Sledge:
You can find most details about cartdumping here. As you see, there is some complications with the game and exrom-lines which usually demand a h/w mod. In theory I believe you might be able to dump it through an MMC64 aswell. The problem is that there is no documentation on how the logic works in the Silverrock carts. Mason? |
| |
Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
Plenty of information about dumping carts here:
http://markus.brenner.de/cartridge/index.html
(Argh, Twoflower beat me to the submit button ;) )
|
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
When I've dumped cartridges I've used a cartridge port expander. Select an empty slot, switch on c64, load mdump or a machine code monitor from disk, switch in the slot with the cartridge in and dump the content.
But I havent seen any information either about how the silverrock cartridges work but perhaps just some detailed photos of the inside of it can tell? |
| |
tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790 |
I have the Merlin-64 EPROM programmer. Userport board + Cartridge. The cartridge contains prommer software, ml-monitor and basic extensions.
The cartridge is a nice hermetic epoxy blob with a label inside over the circuits. From the top of my head I think there were two 24/28 pin ones, possibly EPROM + RAM or 2*EPROM. I think there are two or three LS-TTL chips too.
I haven't seen any info on it.
Does any one know if this is the same as any of the other popular cartridges?
EDIT: found the manual |
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I know Jerry has one of those programmers, I figure there wasn't that many strange heavy epoxied cartridges with masked hardware. :-) Would be fun to see a dump of it - I doubt it's a big rom and that the bankswitching (if there are any bankswitching) differs much from other early carts. |
| |
tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790 |
I found a 32Kb dump: here
I'm not sure it's correct. $4000-$5fff and $8000-$9fff are identical for instance.
It seems to use $deff and $de00 for bank switching (maybe just aliases)
|
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Ok, after grilling Mason a little about what he can remember concerning the Silverrock carts, things look both positive and negative.
The positive things are that Hugo, Guldkorn Expressen / Kalaspuffsexpressen and Harald Haardtand all are confirmed to have been released on cart. As expected, they used 128/256k roms aswell as 8K banks at $8000-$9FFF. The banks are probably reached by writing to $DE00, but this is yet to be confirmed.
The negative thing is that there are no visible screws on the Silverrock carts, making scanning them a problem (unless they just were snapped together, like them newer C64C's?). Surprisingly though, I found out that the coder of the cartridge-system was Microtop who hangs out here now and then. He ought to have enough information about the bankswitching to be able to help us with the dumping. Let's hope he remembers what logic circuits he used aswell. :-) |
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Ok, so perhaps the dumping programs for ocean and system 3 carts from Markus Brenners homepage will do, but just using mdump and getting a dump of the first bank should give some hints about how the bankswitching is done |
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
True. Why didn't I think of that?
Sledge:
Plug Kalaspuffsexpressen it into your expander, run MDump and mail us the resulting 8k file. The entire filesystem must be managed from that bank. |
| |
Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Quote: True. Why didn't I think of that?
Sledge:
Plug Kalaspuffsexpressen it into your expander, run MDump and mail us the resulting 8k file. The entire filesystem must be managed from that bank.
Oki... will do that. It will take the usual weeks before I can get my hands on that copy, since I have it in the Öviks apartment. But I'm planning to go there next weekend...
DUMPA UMPA!!! |
| |
j0x
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 215 |
I once wrote a little program to dump Hugo and Guldkornsexpressen. Both dumper and "dumpees" should be somewhere on my harddisks.
Edit: Managed to find the files. Sent them by email. |
| |
The Shadow
Registered: Oct 2007
Posts: 304 |
I have an old Promenade C1. Never used it. What are it's capabilities>? |
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Shadow:
You can find the manual of the Promenade C1 here.
Seems to be able to handle atleast 27512's (64K) and will probably burn them in two steps. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
if it wouldnt spoil the fun cracking it for one of the active cracking groups, i could tell you exactly how the prophet 64 cart works =P
what i can tell is, that it works different than any other cartridge (any supported by the crt standard and vice atleast). and its helluva easy to dump =P |
| |
TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Quote: if it wouldnt spoil the fun cracking it for one of the active cracking groups, i could tell you exactly how the prophet 64 cart works =P
what i can tell is, that it works different than any other cartridge (any supported by the crt standard and vice atleast). and its helluva easy to dump =P
There is VICE patch for P64 tho. And no, just extracting PRGs from dump doesn't work ;) |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
<Post edited by chatGPZ on 29/11-2007 17:45>
funny, who made the patch? or did someone steal it from my HD? (i made one for myself aswell ofcourse =P)
(and except for the sequencer, extracting the prgs works just fine =P) |
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I wouldn't care to code a dumper. I would desolder the 27C020 and put it into my trusty Willem-burner instead. It's sure faster - and then I could easily trace connections on the board by just scanning it. |
| |
hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: I have an old Promenade C1. Never used it. What are it's capabilities>?
Programming up to 32 k eproms works fine, like twoflower said you can program a 64k, but you will have to do it in two passes, 32k at a time, manually grounding one of the pins during one pass. The only reason I've used it was because I found it laying around at home. Today I would get a cheap programmer for pc instead. |
| |
TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Quote: funny, who made the patch? or did someone steal it from my HD? (i made one for myself aswell ofcourse =P)
(and except for the sequencer, extracting the prgs works just fine =P)
Damn disk stealers going through your HD now... ;) I'm actually not sure about the author of the patch, but I have a strong hunch.
I only checked the image for extra data and whether the module was accessed from outside intro & menu, I didn't bother using more time for something I have little interest in myself. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
hehe :) only the sequencer uses the module after it has been unpacked and run. the others only do some bogus accesses if i recall correctly. they crash with a cart (AR) though, because they try to init the second sid at de00. |
| |
The Shadow
Registered: Oct 2007
Posts: 304 |
Is using an old cartridge backer to do dumps practical or is there a newer way? |
| |
Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Bump
I still need some information on the above mentioned cartridges - do anybody have a Dinamic, Funplay, Silverrock or System III cart available? Sledge?
For the interested: i've brought my modded Oceancart down to Holland along with the Chase HQ II cart, as I didn't have any time to analyze it in Sweden. Unless I manage to figure it out in advance, i'll bring it to the next HCC-meeting in Maarsen to get some help from the hardware gurus there.
|
| |
Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
Whats the plan 2FL, making a mega-cart? |
