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2013-03-09 11:49

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Looking for exotic disk drives, non-1541 clones

Hi,

i am looking for third-party C-64 5.25" serial bus disk drives that are exceptionally incompatible with existing fast loaders due to their not being 1541 clones. They come with very different ROM code, register and memory layout, peripheral ICs and even processors.

Specifically, these are

MSD SD-1 and SD-2
Digilog FD 2064 and 2064/2
Tecmate NPH-501C with a firmware reporting as "Century Planning Corp. CX-500"

If you have these or other such devices i am not aware of, please tell.
Willing to trade, but remote code testing and debug sessions are welcome, too.

Thanks!

2013-03-09 13:49

TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2246

Hey Krill. Did you talk to Thunder.Bird or Evil.Joe at BCC#7 about those drives? They might rifle through BCC hardware stash.

2013-03-09 20:13

Thunder.Bird

Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 110

Quoting Krill

...
MSD SD-1 and SD-2
Digilog FD 2064 and 2064/2
Tecmate NPH-501C with a firmware reporting as "Century Planning Corp. CX-500"
...

We own some Oceanic OC-118, but I assume you own one yourself.
What about IDE64-testing or RetroReplay, IECATA, SFD1001?

2013-03-10 10:36

WVL

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902

If these drives are almost impossible to find, is it really worthwhile to support them in your loaders or are you only into it for academic reasons? :)

2013-03-10 12:13

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

very good question indeed. i just hope support for these will not bloat the loader even more, its already hard to resist and not clean it up =P

2013-03-11 08:21

HCL

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728

I have a Digilog <something>, but it is *mostly* compatible with common loaders. What i have found is that it can not do SAX instructions. Also Graham's WarpCopy can not write disks with that drive, perhaps he is using SAX, don't know.

..but i'll check what number it has.

2013-03-11 09:25

Twoflower

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434

I had a strange double diskdrive from Xetec which also worked with most loaders at the time (1996-97?) - but far from all. I gave that one away to Mitch/Crest. Would be fun to see a complete list of all these clones and their compatibility.

2013-03-11 18:51

MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078

It'd be interesting to see them added to VICE and emulated.

I have an MSD SD-2 up in the attic packed away in a somewhere...

2013-03-11 19:07

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

It'd be interesting to see them added to VICE and emulated.

lets first emulate 1541 correctly =)

2013-03-11 21:49

Norrland

Registered: Aug 2011
Posts: 14

I also have a crappy digilog (it was a tough childhood, since all other kids had their fastloader-compatible 1541). I'll dig into my old boxes and try to find what model it is, will gladly run some tests on it if that helps you.

2013-03-12 22:29

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

TheRyk: No, haven't. Thanks for the tip.

Thunder.Bird: SFD-1001 is supported under certain conditions (via KERNAL fallback, and test tool needs IEEE-488 interface mapped to $8000, iirc). Tested in VICE but not the real thing yet.

WVL: At the moment, mainly academic. I won't waste much time on supporting those drives before the important ones (1551...) work fine.

Groepaz: Stop this bloat talk already. You know perfectly well that it can be configured down to a whopping resident 256 bytes in the minimal setup. And nobody cares how big the installer with the drive code is, really.

HCL: Yeah, we talked about it already. Good i never used SAX on the serial bus registers. :) Bad a few new ideas of mine rely on that.

Magervalp: Yes, i was thinking of emulation, too. The MSDs are the most interesting drives, with that Rockwell R6511q controller.

Groepaz: And yes, you have a point there.

H Macaroni: Thanks! Tell me when you've found it. The ROM dump i have here suggests that they have saved a VIA by using some discrete logic chips, but the thing didn't come with schematics by any chance? (Some hi-res pics of the insides would rock, though.) :)

2013-03-13 18:30

Hoild

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 29

I have a BlueChip 1541 clone, a BlueChip 1571 clone, and a "Bondwell" that seems to be a clone of BlueChip's 1541 clone...

2013-03-13 18:34

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

And nobody cares how big the installer with the drive code is, really.

it must sure sound funny when i say it, but: you != everyone

2013-03-13 22:52

Norrland

Registered: Aug 2011
Posts: 14

Quoting Krill

H Macaroni: Thanks! Tell me when you've found it. The ROM dump i have here suggests that they have saved a VIA by using some discrete logic chips, but the thing didn't come with schematics by any chance? (Some hi-res pics of the insides would rock, though.) :)

Found it, model name: FD2064. No schematics and as I can understand no info in the manual that helps you.. here's the pics.
Outside FD2064
Inside FD2064 1
Inside FD2064 2

2013-03-14 12:20

HCL

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728

Quoting H Macaroni

Found it, model name: FD2064.

That *looks* exactly like my drive also, outside and inside :).

2013-03-14 14:57

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quote: Quote:
And nobody cares how big the installer with the drive code is, really.

it must sure sound funny when i say it, but: you != everyone

Yes, very true in general.

However i don't see why anybody would reduce installer size to gain a few measly kilobytes at start-up. It's not like disks are brimful in most cases, or that a few more blocks of the bootstrap program would hurt that much.

But everyone is free to use a modified version, even if it means limiting the use to 1541. However, i won't add a configuration option for that, just like i won't add an option to disable checksumming for that extra bit of performance. :)

2013-03-14 15:03

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quote: I have a BlueChip 1541 clone, a BlueChip 1571 clone, and a "Bondwell" that seems to be a clone of BlueChip's 1541 clone...

If those are clones, they should be rather compatible. Any say on that? :)

2013-03-14 15:05

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

It's not like disks are brimful in most cases, or that a few more blocks of the bootstrap program would hurt that much.

you really should make a demo again, i think. the disk is always full =)

2013-03-14 15:13

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quote: Quoting H Macaroni
Found it, model name: FD2064.
That *looks* exactly like my drive also, outside and inside :).

H Macaroni: Thanks a lot!

HCL: If your drive is *mostly* compatible and H Macaroni's isn't, i wonder if there maybe have been different versions of that drive, with different compatibility.

The ROM dump i have here implies that VIA1 (originally mapped to $1800) is at $3900 and not an actual VIA, but some other logic only implementing port B ($1800) with static direction. Furthermore, this port seems to be accessed via $3900, $3904, $3908 and $390c alike.

VIA2 (originally at $1c00) is at $3c00.

The GCR tables are at $f7d7 and $fcb1 rather than $f77f and $fa80.

Now, it may be that if later, more compatible versions exist, yours is one of that, with the ROM tables at their original locations and, most importantly, slightly more complex address decoding logics so the VIA ports are at the standard locations.

Care to check, or make a ROM dump for me? Thanks! )

2013-03-14 15:18

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quote: Quote:
It's not like disks are brimful in most cases, or that a few more blocks of the bootstrap program would hurt that much.

you really should make a demo again, i think. the disk is always full =)

Including the dir track! Now, enable loading by t&s, or wait for IFFL implementation? And damn, disks are so expensive these days, can't afford a second side. :D

You're right about making another demo though. Some day...

2013-03-14 20:34

HCL

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728

@Krill: All that stuff seems to be in place at original addresses, so it surely seems to be a different version than H Macaroni's drive. Though it says FD 2064 on it, no more no less.

ROM dump, sure i could always fix that somehow.. Or do you already have a tool for that!? :).

2013-03-14 20:43

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

Now, enable loading by t&s, or wait for IFFL implementation?

yeah, why remove unneeded junk when you can just aswell make it more complicated? =)

2013-03-14 21:38

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

HCL: Glenn has: http://csdb.dk/release/?id=49683. Otherwise, use AR6 monitor:

@*80
t c000 ffff c000
<go have a coffee or ten>
s"romdump",8,c000,ffff

H Macaroni: Could you make a ROM dump as well?

Thanks!

2013-03-14 21:47

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quote: Quote:
Now, enable loading by t&s, or wait for IFFL implementation?

yeah, why remove unneeded junk when you can just aswell make it more complicated? =)

Because at some point even removing "unnecessary junk" won't be enough for certain people, making more efficient disk usage the next logical step.

2013-03-14 22:25

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

if it comes with all the tools that let me build a disk image just as easy (as in: no manual work required) - go for it :)

2013-03-14 22:54

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quote: if it comes with all the tools that let me build a disk image just as easy (as in: no manual work required) - go for it :)

I thought of just enhancing good ol' cc1541 :) Same for the weirdo formats for superfast loading i might or might not put into action some day :D

2013-03-15 06:51

JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014

Quote: I thought of just enhancing good ol' cc1541 :) Same for the weirdo formats for superfast loading i might or might not put into action some day :D

Yay! I approve! :)

2013-03-15 17:43

Hoild

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 29

Quote: If those are clones, they should be rather compatible. Any say on that? :)

The BlueChip RFC501 was perfect with every fastloader so far.
Its clone, the BondWell, has died Teh Cap Death, dunno if the exploded power buffer cap totally killed it or still repairable.
Regarding the BlueChip RFC512, the 1571 clone, I am not sure, never bothered about using it with a C64 or 128, just storing it, BUT I recall it has a setup of interface chips (CIA/VIA) different from a real 1571. Will check it later.

2013-04-03 06:47

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Turns out the firmware of HCL's Digilog FD 2064 is identical to the original 1541's ROM contents, while the FD 2064 dump i have here is an entirely different beast.

I vaguely remember i once read that there were some copyright issues with ROMs in 1541 clones, so could it be that HCL's drive is actually an OLDER, more compatible version, and that later revisions came with different firmware AND hardware changes that went along with it, reducing compatibility a lot?

Anybody know more? :)

2013-04-03 07:46

HCL

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 728

Oh, interesting! As i said i always felt my drive is *quite* compatible, even though not 100%. ..and the reason why SAX don't work must be that the HW architecture is different.. Perhaps my SAX stores (A or X) instead of (A and X) :P.

2013-04-03 07:59

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quote: Oh, interesting! As i said i always felt my drive is *quite* compatible, even though not 100%. ..and the reason why SAX don't work must be that the HW architecture is different.. Perhaps my SAX stores (A or X) instead of (A and X) :P.

H Macaroni's Digilog snapshots suggest a Synertek SY6502 controller (http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/SYM/SYM1_REF05.pdf) rather than our trusted MOS 6502.
I didn't know that some 6502 variants without 16-bit, power saving or other extensions do not support SAX, which i regarded as one of the few safe illegals. But then i didn't know of the SY6502 before this thread either. Must be a reason those opcodes're called illegal. :)

2013-04-03 10:31

The MeatBall

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 367

Quote: TheRyk: No, haven't. Thanks for the tip.

Thunder.Bird: SFD-1001 is supported under certain conditions (via KERNAL fallback, and test tool needs IEEE-488 interface mapped to $8000, iirc). Tested in VICE but not the real thing yet.

WVL: At the moment, mainly academic. I won't waste much time on supporting those drives before the important ones (1551...) work fine.

Groepaz: Stop this bloat talk already. You know perfectly well that it can be configured down to a whopping resident 256 bytes in the minimal setup. And nobody cares how big the installer with the drive code is, really.

HCL: Yeah, we talked about it already. Good i never used SAX on the serial bus registers. :) Bad a few new ideas of mine rely on that.

Magervalp: Yes, i was thinking of emulation, too. The MSDs are the most interesting drives, with that Rockwell R6511q controller.

Groepaz: And yes, you have a point there.

H Macaroni: Thanks! Tell me when you've found it. The ROM dump i have here suggests that they have saved a VIA by using some discrete logic chips, but the thing didn't come with schematics by any chance? (Some hi-res pics of the insides would rock, though.) :)

Kill: I have a SFD-1001 and a IEEE interface (not sure it's mapped to $8000 tho), only issues is that it disables the IEC bus so how do I actually get the loader over on a SFD disk...

2013-04-03 23:45

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quoting The MeatBall

only issues is that it disables the IEC bus

Which IEEE488 interface is that? Does it have DIP switches? Are you sure you cannot use serial and parallel devices at the same time?

2013-04-04 14:41

MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078

Quote: Quoting The MeatBall
only issues is that it disables the IEC bus

Which IEEE488 interface is that? Does it have DIP switches? Are you sure you cannot use serial and parallel devices at the same time?

The official C= interface does that. You can get around it by replacing the ROM, I think Uz made a patched one.

2013-04-04 16:02

The MeatBall

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 367

It's called C64 - IEEE by MSD, Inc.
Claims to be transparent and has a cartridge pass-thru, but I've not been able to use a cart with the interface, nor IEC devices.

2013-04-05 12:05

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Hum, then ZoomFloppy with IEEE-488 interface is currently the only option i see to get data onto an SFD disk.

2013-04-06 18:00

Exile

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 58

Willing to test the following

- Blue chip
- blue chip 128
- enhancer
- oceanic 501c
- dec (1541 clone)
- MSD 2
- probably some other i don't remember

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