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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Release id #211073 : GT Protect (Goat Tracker .SID Protector)
<Post edited by moderator on 5/11-2021 17:53>
[Moved from comments] to the forums:
Quote:
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Submitted by spider-j [PM] on 5 November 2021
This is just silly.
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
"fuck no :D"
LAMER! :D
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Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 5 November 2021
> Even ripping should be kind of effort.
fuck no :D
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
@2bt: it's absolutely not about fear of losing trade secrets - if anybody is that desperate, one will always find a way ;) It's about people taking what they want/need/desire the lazy way via shortcut because they feel entitled to. Even ripping should be kind of effort. And real demoscene was always about genuine effort, wasn't it? ;)
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Submitted by Jason Page [PM] on 5 November 2021
I didn't think the protector would cause such a stir either! I wrote a sid>sng and sid>cheesecutter tool a few years ago. Your code is much cleaner than mine! :-) Also, CC is far easier to rip.
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Submitted by 2bt [PM] on 5 November 2021
I didn't think sid2sng would cause such a stir. Protect your sid if you feel that you must. :)
I never knew people would fear that their instruments get revealed. You can just look at the dump or use SID Monitor to get a pretty good idea how a particular sound is achieved. There is no protection against that (and why would you want it anyways?).
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@Mibri i guess your right. Moved to forums. Release id #211073 : GT Protect (Goat Tracker .SID Protector)
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Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 5 November 2021
lovely reactions here :)
If you cant derive the sounds using siddump you dont deserve using them anyway :=) So thumbs up :=)
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Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
Just remember dear C64 cock stuffed people. There is just 1 more gen. Then you have your stardust blown away to nobody listening!
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
well i guess i do understand this abit more now. Was just abit fed up.
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Submitted by Mibri [PM] on 5 November 2021
No one wants to discourage or alienate new composers. As has been stated here at least twice already, experienced composers are generally happy to share their knowledge, even their workfiles, so that's not the issue. Swapping stuff between friends is a vital part of the scene's roots, but you have to have some contact with (and respect from) who you're taking from - that's just showing a bit of class.
Back on the 'learning' thing: the way to learn is to do a lot of listening while developing a personal style by doing your own messing around in your chosen tools, and the process never ends. I'm quite sure that's how everyone does it.
Is it time to shunt this discussion to the Forums yet?
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@TheRyk he has used goattracker tho only for 2 tunes
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Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
Why do I even greet half of you in the few demos I make?
So an artist means, even in 2021 can't be a hidden gem/technique etc.
Maybe the new rule would be to show even code and music at demo-parties is open-sources,
just as my artwork in 5 workstages, in this so hegemonic homogenic scene is.
For-whatever it's worth it's not more than 1 generation more before it's lost in dust.
Use your time, know your friends and get on with it!
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@Joe haha why should i :) As a kinda new sid musician who has just now started to actually take sid music seriously i think that checking out other musicians sid files to learn is kind of a thing to do and things like these are the ones to kind of make beginner/intermediate c64 musicians kind of half pissed
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Submitted by Jason Page [PM] on 5 November 2021
Hey.
Please read this in the manner it was meant: I have utmost respect for anyone who gives a crap about C64 / SID.
I just feel people should be given a choice. If people are happy to share, they won't try to protect the files. So what's the problem? There are already 10000's of GT tunes to learn from and it's likely that most in the future will also not be protected if that's what the composer wishes.
I'm also all for learning. Do a search on YouTube for the 1:30 hour video I created on how I use SIDTracker. The fact that I also gave the whole Turrican SID away with that tool too.
But that was *my* choice.
That's all I've got to say.
User Comment
Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
Be civil!
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
I'm more than happy to share my sng but.. well... good luck with using any of my fucked up instruments as they usually also require appropriate interaction between channels :D
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@Jammer Didnt think it was that exact But Okay
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
@That8BitChiptuneGuy: what Mibri exactly said ;)
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
Rated it a 1 because there are people who want to learn goattracker who want to learn by checking their favourite sid musicians sng files.
Say someone like me who want to get to the levels of musicians like iunno. Jammer, LMan, Fanta, etc etc. Probably wants to learn goattracker by checking out how they do it. Also to those who are thinking but theyll steal my instruments they probably wont. And even if they do maybe a fresh tune will maybe come out eh? And this isnt needed since you can convert to a swm (sid wizard module file) and then export to sid from that. I refuse to steal instruments (unless its something like futurecomposer style instruments).
User Comment
Submitted by Mibri [PM] on 5 November 2021
Most experienced musicians are very happy to talk shop and share their knowledge - hell, they'll even share their SNG files with people they have a rapport with. Sharing is cool. But if you think that saving 'instrument' presets from converted files or whatever is going to help your music, well, it doesn't really work like that. Composers need to use their ears and do their own experiments. Otherwise, what's the point? This is not elitism; I only insist on a bit of craft and honesty.
So, nice one Jason. :D
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Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 5 November 2021
damn timeout for editing comments!11!11
The sid that can't be protected without altering its output I tested is The Required Fields
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Submitted by TheRyk [PM] on 5 November 2021
yup 2021, times of open source, and we're dealing with C64 music file instrument protection software...
maybe 2bt or spider will "crack" that silly thing :D
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Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 5 November 2021
Heh, clever, works by shuffling a couple of tables in the sid files so sid2sng gets confused on what to do, as it expects them in a fixed order.
Now I'm expecting a counter-tool to restore the tables in the original places and let sid2sng do its work :D
Edit: Siddump shows a couple of differences from the original and the protected version of the same sid, so it's not guaranteed they will sound the same after the alteration.
User Comment
Submitted by TheRyk [PM] on 5 November 2021
I beg to differ
And it's even worse that it's by someone who AFAIR doesn't use GT anyway
Two thumbs down from me
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Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
This is so incredibly cool; I don't know where to start! Don't steal my instruments MR! :D
Don't steal that snare!
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Submitted by Jason Page [PM] on 5 November 2021
Just for those who want to protect their GoatTracker .sid files from being converted back to .sng files :-)
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117 |
Quoting JammerI'm more than happy to share my sng but.. well... good luck with using any of my fucked up instruments as they usually also require appropriate interaction between channels :D
↑ This!
Many instruments rely on very specific interactions (be it filter-work, pitch-based modulations or waveform overlapping), so they often provide very little use out of context (music or pattern-wise) in which they were created. While writing more intricate stuff, it's usually required to strategize all SID resources "as a whole".
It also raises a question, why would anyone want to mimic Jammer or Linus (or whoever is their personal hero) and not make their own trademark sound instead. The best insights usually come from experiments, and there are tons of topics on the forums sharing knowledge on SID behavior/quirks.
Quoting AdamAre there people out there ripping instruments to justify the existence of this tool?
Some people go as far as observing SID registers using C64 65XE Debugger V0.64.56.8 only to later ask about them in private. ;-)
I'm fine with that. In the end, there's no ultimate protection if someone's desperate determined enough. ;-) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quote:Some people go as far as observing SID registers
I even go as far as looking at some of my own stuff in siddump when after some fiddeling I found some interesting sound combinations :-) Because it is by far the most accurate way to understand what is actually happening when you look at it frame by frame. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2218 |
Quote:as long as people aren't ripping music data
LOL of course the patterns are also recreated when using SID2SNG... that's what an SNG file is about: patterns (music data), .INStruments, tables...
But agreed, using so. elses notes without clearly declaring it a remix/remake ensures that you'll definetely go to hell, reminds me of famous old forum freds such as The sid stealing continues! ... btw for gfxians who also want drama, there is Say goodbye to SID stealing, VIC STEALING IS BORN! :-( |
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mutetus
Registered: Dec 2020
Posts: 12 |
Ripping my sids ends right here. For I uploaded them also in Goattracker sng format, enjoy. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 461 |
too late for me, i already analyzed the shit out of Mutetus discography :) (still, it would be extremely cool for the scene if more people ripped your sids - or, in the New Era, downloaded the sources - to see how to write music, going as far as to take whole chord progressions and build virtually anything new upon them XD)
but there's an inspiration to do exactly the same, minus the extremely cool for the scene part. as soon as i find the files... |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Most funny topic in ages :)
The battle has ended.
The heroes swore they would give their best SID instruments to charity.
When the third magically userfriendly tracker is found, it's power will change the world. |
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Splunkh!
Registered: Apr 2021
Posts: 31 |
Hahaham I also love this thread! :D What a joy, a bit of *passion* again, keeping the gray November weather at bay.
I remember the "in-source" friendly amiga .mod's and DOS .xm's / s3m's comments: "Thank you scener x of group y for instrumenta 0a 0b & 0c". Everything regarding tracking, not just borrowing samples, was co-taught by looking into the songs.
On the topics of instruments what can one say..
Well well, it's probably just around the corner with some enthusiast starting to release eh 'instrument disks'. Like "Best Of Jammer" "Linus Classics Vol XII" "Stinsen Moments" etc :D |
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Splunkh!
Registered: Apr 2021
Posts: 31 |
Quote: too late for me, i already analyzed the shit out of Mutetus discography :) (still, it would be extremely cool for the scene if more people ripped your sids - or, in the New Era, downloaded the sources - to see how to write music, going as far as to take whole chord progressions and build virtually anything new upon them XD)
but there's an inspiration to do exactly the same, minus the extremely cool for the scene part. as soon as i find the files...
Sorry I quoted the wrong quote. What I meant was: |
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Splunkh!
Registered: Apr 2021
Posts: 31 |
Quote: Ripping my sids ends right here. For I uploaded them also in Goattracker sng format, enjoy.
Hey thank you for uploading/sharing all your sng's!!
(It seems that the only two missing sng's in your discography was Mutetus Theme and Welcome to the Future )
Your songs are truly outstanding! Almost my entire nightshift has been spent with https://deepsid.chordian.net/?file=/MUSICIANS/M/Mutetus :D |
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