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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

... 209 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2005-04-13 08:38

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364

"Infact I've got back my entries , Ice Guys + Bomb Mania.
But I'm not allowed to add a link to an enternal place."

leet hax0r skills required there. remove and readd the entry :=P

2005-04-13 08:43

Perff
Administrator

Posts: 1679

I guess I should say something...

As I see it there are two main issues here:
MacGyvers admin-usage and the removal of links to cracks.

About MacGyver let me first state that he is NOT admin. He have what we call a 'trusted' status, which a few other users also have. This is mainly people we know and trust, and who are willing to put some effort into keeping CSDb clean. Therefor they have a few additional right like being able to alter locked entries and see anonymous votes to spot suspicious votings, and pass such information on to us.
These rights should of course not be abused, and we have also confronted MacGyver with this. What should happen is still being discussed.

The other thing about the removal of links. In CSDb we have the general policy that if someone have a problem, rightfully of course, with some of the information in CSDb, they can asked for it to be removed. This was mainly for people not wanting their name, address, e-mail, phone, etc. in CSDb, but is also the case for entire entries - and yes, download links.
Since the beginning of CSDb I have altered and removed a lot of information from CSDb on such requests, and no one have complained. Now silly 3 links have been removed and all hell breaks loose.

So now I'm also involved in this discussion - after 100+ posts. I think that no thread have ever had so much attention before. ;)
(Please remember that this site is not my fulltime occupation but more like a hobby, so I'm not always so active)

2005-04-13 08:58

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Perff: but this still doesn't fix the problem. External links to this site are not the concern of CSDB and out of your control (remember the disclaimer).

I now have Hockey Mania+D/Onslaught back under the right ownership (I created the entry), if I link to The Digital Dungeon, will the link be removed (AGAIN)? And if it is removed can you please ellaborate on why you have a DISCLAIMER that you don't appear to follow?

2005-04-13 09:07

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364

"The other thing about the removal of links. In CSDb we have the general policy that if someone have a problem, rightfully of course, with some of the information in CSDb, they can asked for it to be removed. This was mainly for people not wanting their name, address, e-mail, phone, etc. in CSDb, but is also the case for entire entries - and yes, download links.
Since the beginning of CSDb I have altered and removed a lot of information from CSDb on such requests, and no one have complained. Now silly 3 links have been removed and all hell breaks loose."

removing private info (which shouldnt be added by 3rd parties in the first place) is one thing, removing releases which are "out in the wild" already is a different thing IMHO.

like someone else already said, there should be a policy for everyone to read that clearly states what should be added and what shouldnt.

2005-04-13 09:11

Perff
Administrator

Posts: 1679

The disclaimer is there because anyone can enter anything, and because noone checks all that is entered. So theoreticly Bin Laden can use CSDb to communicate through. :)

However, when information are found by someone that dosn't think it should be here, and are somehow entitled to this information, we will of course remove it.
This also regards links to copyrighted material, so yes - if you reenter the links and Protovision asks me to remove it, it will be removed.
"What's the point in having cracks in CSDb then?"
Basically CSDb is a site of information of the scene - not an archive of all cracks and demos ever made. That there are download-links to a lot of the releases inhere is only a plus. (Actually dl-links was first added to CSDb after about 6 months)
Most cracks are no longer copyright-enforced, so there are no problems in having links to these. So I don't see the big problem in a single company that still would like to enforce their rights on 3 (THREE!!!) games.

2005-04-13 09:15

MacGyver
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149

1. Stop comparing cracking on the C64 today with cracking on the C64 15 years ago - this is nonsense.

2. Stop calling Protovision commercial, cause as I pointed out before, we only cover our costs (not even!) and forward the bigger amount to the creator of the product.

3. Hockey Mania, as well as Ice Guys and Bomb Mania, are (C)opyright Protovision and so no one but Protovision (and the game's authors, if they are not a member of PTV) have a right to decide if and how they are going to be offered for free download.

3. In contrast to most other C64 games, these games are still sold today. Get that!

4. If you want to try out the games, get the previews available.

5. We try to keep our games compatible to other devices like those from CMD. Copy protections hamper the games working on these drives.

6. Stop calling my points off topic, but you come up e. g. with me providing Centric. I bought most (if not all) upper quality games for the C64 from the mid-90'es on, beeing it Flummies World, Walkerz and Leisure Suit Leo II or titles when they were still distributed by the authors, like It's Magic 1, Ice Guys and Bomb Mania.

7. Interesting you always pretended to be nice towards me, StreeTuff, but downvoted me without given any particular reason. Instead, you shout at my for "misusing" my admin rights.

8. Nice seeing some guys showing their real faces, next to StreeTuff e.g. Hollowman and Fungus.

2005-04-13 09:20

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11364

"Most cracks are no longer copyright-enforced, so there are no problems in having links to these. So I don't see the big problem in a single company that still would like to enforce their rights on 3 (THREE!!!) games."

the problem is that a crack of say, jumpman-jr, is in no way "less illegal" than a crack of ice-guys or even windows-xp. whats enforced or not doesnt really matter unless everything is threatened equally. so it should be "links to cracks are ok" or "links to cracks are bad" not "links to cracks are bad except to those 3 which for some strange reason we dont know ourselves are different"

2005-04-13 09:24

H.O
Account closed

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 70

Quote: The disclaimer is there because anyone can enter anything, and because noone checks all that is entered. So theoreticly Bin Laden can use CSDb to communicate through. :)

However, when information are found by someone that dosn't think it should be here, and are somehow entitled to this information, we will of course remove it.
This also regards links to copyrighted material, so yes - if you reenter the links and Protovision asks me to remove it, it will be removed.
"What's the point in having cracks in CSDb then?"
Basically CSDb is a site of information of the scene - not an archive of all cracks and demos ever made. That there are download-links to a lot of the releases inhere is only a plus. (Actually dl-links was first added to CSDb after about 6 months)
Most cracks are no longer copyright-enforced, so there are no problems in having links to these. So I don't see the big problem in a single company that still would like to enforce their rights on 3 (THREE!!!) games.

Ok, I can buy that. I dont necessarily agree, but I can see your point and why you have it.

That said, I'd like to see that policy highlighted a bit more; maybe a disclaimer at the top of the "add entry" page, or something similar.

(And my apologies for qouting so much text for a short answer, but I am a bit lazy at the moment)

2005-04-13 09:26

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

MacGyver: why didn't you just message the crack groups who uploaded these releases and inform them of your wishes and discussed it with them? Of course if you took over their entry and removed the download link they would be insulted, what would you expect?

What do you expect from people who have had their anonymous votes looked at by you and when you question them why they downvoted such and such. This is abuse of power and you know it!

Perff:

This is such a huge database you cannot be obligated to check links. The only reason these 3 links have been removed is because your little POLICEMAN with GOD-STATUS has removed them. How come Ice Guys can still be downloaded yet the SCS&TRC version is removed? (Ice Guys)

This is crap!

2005-04-13 09:29

yago

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333

Nobody gets hurt if you crack jumpman-jr, but a lot of work gets dishonoured by cracking games from the last (at least half) professional c64-software company.

Instead of beeing happy that real software (including boxes, manual etc) keeps the C64 alive, some of you guys insult the protovision people.

I dont want to judge about nowaday swappers, but even in the good old times it was a little bit harder to get cracked software, so nobody should complain if he has to search longer then just enter csdb.

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