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2024-12-09 23:04

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Release id #248155 : Hiking Home for Christmas

Drama posts go here:

... 128 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2024-12-11 21:39

CopAss

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 21

"User Comment
Submitted by Raistlin [PM] on 11 December 2024
“Raistlin, how would you feel if lame demomaker demos got voted to top spots by your fellow sceners? Because it’s all good fun and they don’t care. Would you go on coding with same gusto?”

Sure. I mean, maybe not demomaker.. but, for me, many demos charting and winning compos are lame - code wise at least. It’s been that way for a while now. Demos are no longer about the best code - it seems we’ve gone the way of the PC demoscene so that stories and animation ideas win over technical wizardry. It’s sad and annoying… but we press on and we’ll be back at future demo compos for sure.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the argument here re: AI or wired art .. but to attack every posted image.. and to not give evidence of copying etc.. I dunno, it’s a bit weak.

Compo orgas can ask for workstages or whatever proof they want. Maybe there can be some live-drawing compos as well?

Facet’s pics are stunning. I’ve only seen 1 piece of evidence of a copy, the car pic, and that’s the same evidence that El Jefe showed me a long time back. If there’s more, it would be interesting to see. But even with that car pic, although the shapes match, a ton of work was done on coloring - copying that I’ve seen of others, including those who’ve weighed in on the no-copy thing and shown the 5-fingers logo, has had much less extra work done. If those fighting the no-copy cause are also copying, isn’t it a bit hypocritical..?

User Comment
Submitted by CopAss [PM] on 11 December 2024
@Raistlin: "post-processed converted image" vs "drawing from scratch"
the final image never matches the sketch, as the content and composition are constantly evolving along the way. it is refined.
fools gold - joe: https://ibb.co/yVgXcPj
slobber - the sarge: https://youtu.be/hOPguluQUDA
escaping an dinner - copass: https://youtu.be/fLU7HeTB7c0
end boss - critikill: https://ibb.co/TH282r2
green man - facet: https://ibb.co/58MdKhy
do you see the difference?
joe,sarge and I have reworked either the whole image or just parts of it several times.
with facet,critikill the contour is there perfectly and they don't touch it once.
they don't touch the sketch because they copy from a finished image.
you can't see how the image was created, just "puff" and there's a finished contour and all you see is dithering! wtf?!:D
Anyone who has ever drawn knows what I'm talking about."

2024-12-11 22:51

El Jefe

Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 81

Quote: I am observing those discussions for quite a long time. Some argue, that pixelling is all about fun. I'd say, if we are plain honest with ourselves, it is just half of the truth. Creation might be fun and there's also a goal behind creation, mainly presenting the result, earning praise and good votes or even winning a competition. I would love to ask, how much fun would it be, if you pixel those art just for your own, without ever showing it to someone else?
That said, how good are we at loosing and receiving feedback or critics? Can we accept it and reflect on ourself, or will we just start denying it and by that starting to defend ourselves? So in fact people hide a lack at certain skills, instead of being simply honest. This hiding leads to drama, to excuses, to cheating with worksteps, to insults and defending. That is, why i love a good portion of transparency on the creation process. With accepting that skills aren't well developed yet, one enters the chance of growth, with hiding that fact, one will stick to the old routine and never change, but keeping up the drama.
So becoming good, means to accept own failure first, which applies for all cetegories, not only gfx.

This!

Very precisely observed and to the point!

2024-12-12 09:19

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

Quote:

i would never thou speak out which persons i think use AI or any other helpful tools. unlike some of you guys are trying to blame others in public even without proofs.

if its realy important to you guys, then teach the masses how they can recognize AI converts.

@Peacemaker:
These are very good points. Very good. Or rather, its one very good point, and one useful suggestion.
Usually it's not easy or productive to try and teach consumers of popular art/craft how to evaluate it. Especially in a setting like the demoscene. It gets branded as being snotty and not "democratic". Since there are less gfx artists than consumers of their work, the logic was: it would be easier to plead with gfx artists not to steal or cheat, than to "teach" consumers of their work how to spot a fake. And it would solve the problem thoroughly once and for all. At least, that's how I understood that gfx guidelines paper. Was this a viable strategy still remains to be seen.

2024-12-12 13:26

Dr. TerrorZ

Registered: Oct 2013
Posts: 17

There are of course more purposes for C64 images than showing how "good at drawing" the person is.

But I don't get why a person wants to pretend they are "good at drawing" by using other means. Tell something about how you made your pictures, it shouldn't be a huge problem? I don't mind references. But why hide the process, why hide the credit?

2024-12-12 13:37

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

@Dr. TerrorZ:
Exactly. Many people possess crazy Photoshop skills. Or mindblowing 3D modelling/texturing/lighting/rendering skills. Skills that some of the artists crafty with pencil and paper (or joystick) can only dream of. Yet, I get the feeling some of these guys (ok girls too) want to hide their true talents and present themselves as having good drawing skills. For whatever reason. Some have "prompt engineering" skills. FFS show off, brag, don't pretend to be someone else. Why they do it is beyond me too.

2024-12-12 16:47

CopAss

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 21

Quote: There are of course more purposes for C64 images than showing how "good at drawing" the person is.

But I don't get why a person wants to pretend they are "good at drawing" by using other means. Tell something about how you made your pictures, it shouldn't be a huge problem? I don't mind references. But why hide the process, why hide the credit?

They must have "good" reasons for hiding the creating process.
Those who are honest won't make a problem out of it.
"okay I'll make a timelapse if you're curious about it!"
but the way he yells about every picture that he copied it, AI, etc.
admit that he can't draw and then we'll evaluate his works that way.
but then he won't win competitions in graphics, but will go into the freestyle, wild category.

2024-12-13 09:08

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1101

Quoting CopAss

They must have "good" reasons for hiding the creating process.
Those who are honest won't make a problem out of it.

It probably has to do with the accusations w/o proof you post in many threads, the swear words and general awful behavior.

And then you expect everybody to dance to your tune. LOL

The words I quoted from you are a perfect example, you basically claim that everybody who does not answer to your demands is dishonest. But you forget nobody has any obligation to answer to you.

The way you and a very small amount of others keep screaming, keep misbehaving and keep destroying every thread about graphics is very off-putting and very far from general scene ethics.

You need to learn how to bring your ideas without blame and attacks and without virtue signalling. You'll be much more effective this way.

2024-12-13 09:54

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

I also second Gröpaz' assertion that nobody is required to disclose their process and perfectly justified to ignore such demands.

2024-12-13 10:04

TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2244

Quoting Bitbreaker

... With accepting that skills aren't well developed yet, one enters the chance of growth, with hiding that fact, one will stick to the old routine and never change, but keeping up the drama.
So becoming good, means to accept own failure first, which applies for all cetegories, not only gfx.

For some reason the drama is mostly about gfx lately.

I can't recall any recent debate about coding. Some decade(s) ago, people frowned about cross development in general, today this doesn't seem to play much of a role, the debate is reduced to matter of taste.

About cracking: Is it bad if someone uses a disassembler or VICE Mon? I don't think so.

Sure, we have debates about music time and again (is multi-speed allowed, are samples lame, THCM tool, stolen GT .INSes etc.), but less frequent and controversial.

So BTT, the gfxians seem to be the most AI-worried people at the moment.

What bitbreaker and others said about transparency of process being recommendable, definetely makes sense, especially the part about secret-mongering always fuels the fire; some Pharisees permanently wield their torches and pitchforks and just wait to jump at someone with fishy or incomplete workstages. These folx more often than not have a point, however, I'd appreciate a somewhat more laid back attitude, after all it's Advent season, so leaving the church in the village or biting your fingers is an alternative to generating AI/wired drama again and again....

2024-12-13 12:15

Scrap

Registered: Jan 2021
Posts: 20

Totally agree with TheRyk. And it is absolutely ok to discuss things like this and I understand everyone’s concerns. But nobody needs to make some kind of witch-hunt out of this.

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